SPX Credit Spread Trader

dagnyt,

If you sell two 5-point spreads equivalent in size, let's say 10contracts.

1435/1440 @ 2.00
1475/1480 @ 0.50

Absolute risk on the first (CTM) is $3000, while on the second (FOTM) it is $4500. So your risk is higher even though the size is the same. The potential profit is also lower. The only thing you've accomplished is higher PoP. The common argument is that one would never let the FOTM position reach the point of max loss. But the same can be said for the CTM spread. What I was getting at is that on a quick adverse move, the FOTM approaches the max loss point faster than the CTM counterpart. That sucks because it already has more risk. This makes the CTM more managable. On a quick move if you have to take a loss on the two spreads, it will be much more damaging on the FOTM, and it will likely take the better part of a year to recoup. OTOH, the CTM will recoup within a month or two.

I'm not trying to promote CTM because you do have to have some directional skill, but I just want to point out the factual disadvantage of FOTM.

In considering different ways to manage a CTM.... covering when the short is breached makes no sense at all, unless you've placed the short on a percieved s/r level. You might consider covering once the PoP drops to a certain level (e.g. the short has a 30% chance of going OTM again), or you might offset to realize a loss of 50% of the absolute risk. If you like daytrading you might buy back the shorts and let the ITM longs run to recoup the losses. There are many ways to do it.

Just some suggestions, but really you should realize that the only way FOTM works is if you can anticipate the big move and get out of the way.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

What I mean is that almost every position you open has - exp because of slippage and commiss. Slippage is amplified the further OTM you go. That means greater -exp at the open. The -exp on the FOTM also grows faster with a quick adverse move. That is logical because an FOTM vertical is almost strickly a theta play. Movement is the enemy. The CTM version is more a delta play.

Cache,

Thanks for your explanation. I thought about it after I posted my message. I agree with you 100% on this matter.

Since I have no experience of selling CTM vertical, how frequent (in normal market, not a 3 sigma event) do you adjust your CTM when compared to OTM if the market is moving against you? More adjustment means more slippage and it addes up the negative expectancy.

Your experience in both CTM and OTM will provide helpful insights to those (including myself) who only only trade one strategy.
 
Quote from TrendSailor:

I think the sentiment is changing relative to FED action and expectation for interest rate cut looks like its reverting back to a possible hike. TS

I agree with you. I don't really understand the reasons behind the strong upward action this morning. There is no way for a rate cut, and soon the fear of rate hike will come back to the market. Can anyone explain today's market action?

I never use macro econ for trading options. Perhaps I can learn from some of you how to use the fundamental for predicting the market direction.
 
Quote from yip1997:

Cache,

Thanks for your explanation. I thought about it after I posted my message. I agree with you 100% on this matter.

Since I have no experience of selling CTM vertical, how frequent (in normal market, not a 3 sigma event) do you adjust your CTM when compared to OTM if the market is moving against you? More adjustment means more slippage and it addes up the negative expectancy.

Your experience in both CTM and OTM will provide helpful insights to those (including myself) who only only trade one strategy.

I adjust the me frequently. Traders always make the statement, "Cut losses short and let winners run". That is one of those statements that sounds great but is very difficult. Many times when you let a winner run, it runs right into a loss.

I say cut losses at a predetermined point and take profits at a predetermined point. With a CTM spread you might end up taking profits more frequently rather than waiting for expiry. You can do this a number of ways like offsetting the spread, converting to box, converting to b-fly. Whatever you want. Or you can buy back the shorts, wait for a correction, and sell them again.

More active trading adds to expenses like you said, but it also allows for more frequent compounding. So it is hard to evaluate without specifics.
 
Quote from piccon:

My PUT wing gave me a net gain of 0.90 and the cal picks up 1.60 for a total of 2.50 about 7.9K. Right now I am up 2K on the CTM. I am ready to convert it into a butterfly by tomorrow.

If I do it right now, I will be guaranted a break even on the CTM because I can get $3 for 790/780 PUT.

But I am watching it.

piccon,

By looking at your result, it seems that your profit is still mainly coming from otm. There is nothing wrong with using both ctm and otm, and I believe it is great to have a mixed strategy.

I also trade otm verticals and ctm diagonals. Most of my profit is coming from vertical. In fact my return on margin for vertical is around 8 to 10%. The return from diagonal is small and the diagonal consumes a lot of my buying power too. However I like to have both. The combination of both strategies fits my adjustment style very well IMO.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

I say cut losses at a predetermined point and take profits at a predetermined point. With a CTM spread you might end up taking profits more frequently rather than waiting for expiry.

Cache,

We started this discussion by comparing piccon's trading style with mine. Piccon's trading style seems very different from you IMO by looking at the way he managed the trade.

1. He made a directional bet by selling a ATM or CTM put vertical.
2. The market reversed as predicted and went up. He then sold a call vertical to form a CTM IC. (I believe you will take the quick profit and close the position)
3. The market went up and down, and he ended up a CTM IC with little profit now with a few days to expiration.

I agree with you the way you trade CTM, but I don't agree with piccon the way he manges his CTM. One can't isolate his management style from his trading strategy IMO. He has made good money because of his directional outlook and not management skill.
 
Quote from yip1997:

Cache,

We started this discussion by comparing piccon's trading style with mine. Piccon's trading style seems very different from you IMO by looking at the way he managed the trade.

1. He made a directional bet by selling a ATM or CTM put vertical.
2. The market reversed as predicted and went up. He then sold a call vertical to form a CTM IC. (I believe you will take the quick profit and close the position)
3. The market went up and down, and he ended up a CTM IC with little profit now with a few days to expiration.

I agree with you the way you trade CTM, but I don't agree with piccon the way he manges his CTM. One can't isolate his management style from his trading strategy IMO. He has made good money because of his directional outlook and not management skill.

That is his prerogative if his forecast is a rangebound market. A worthless expiry will pay off big. Personally I like to lock profits when a target is hit.
 
You are exactly right. That will be my next step. It's to trade ITM, CTM only at directional bias basis and close afyter two or three days. I did that last month creating 30 ITM Calls but 15 CTM PUT and then close 15 Calls when profit was 50% and then leave the 15 Iron Condor till the end. I can live with both situations.

Quote from yip1997:

Cache,

We started this discussion by comparing piccon's trading style with mine. Piccon's trading style seems very different from you IMO by looking at the way he managed the trade.

1. He made a directional bet by selling a ATM or CTM put vertical.
2. The market reversed as predicted and went up. He then sold a call vertical to form a CTM IC. (I believe you will take the quick profit and close the position)
3. The market went up and down, and he ended up a CTM IC with little profit now with a few days to expiration.

I agree with you the way you trade CTM, but I don't agree with piccon the way he manges his CTM. One can't isolate his management style from his trading strategy IMO. He has made good money because of his directional outlook and not management skill.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

dagnyt,

If you sell two 5-point spreads equivalent in size, let's say 10contracts.

1435/1440 @ 2.00
1475/1480 @ 0.50

Absolute risk on the first (CTM) is $3000, while on the second (FOTM) it is $4500. So your risk is higher even though the size is the same. The potential profit is also lower. The only thing you've accomplished is higher PoP.


PoP?? :confused: Translation, please?

Cru
 
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