SPX Credit Spread Trader

Quote from Li Ka Shing:

I too want to know how best to use the POT, or whether that is just another useless diversion.

Because POT, POE, delta (some people believe delta is probability of ending ITM), etc all seems to be detached from market TA. It doesn't take into regard, for instance, whether the market just penetrated a key S/R, or whether the prior day there was a huge bullish engulfing candle, and so on so forth. In other words, they are too fixated on probabilities, IV, statistics, they become a detached mathematical calculations based on formulas. I thought this is actually misleading for us traders, for the practical purpose of trading. I never really knew how to integrate such POT types of data into practice, or rather, I found them to be undependable to be traded on and should be avoided.

If you guys' experience agree with this, or if you have found them useful instead to be part of the considerations, let's discuss it further....

This topic is impossible to delve into without discussing personal opinions. So, I will state some personal opinions first and open myself up for criticism.

1) Price action is not ALWAYS random and therefore doesn't follow a normal distribution. That is, movement of the underlying is random much of the time, but there are points at which buyers/sellers group together to cause a non-random event.

2) OTOH, 95% of TA is complete BS.

3) Options are the best trading vehicle because they make it easier to gain an edge and take advantage of non-random patterns.

4) The zero-sum argument is flawed and inaccurate.

Ok, so in answer to your statement, POT is pretty much useless if you are using it to identify a mathematical positive expectancy for a credit spread. If you randomly enter credit spreads and systematically exit the spread if a certain price is hit, you are a living definition of neg. expectancy. The credit you receive is reduced for the likelihood that the spread will go ITM and then return OTM before expiry. The above mentioned strategy will not take advantage of that likelihood.

OTOH, if you enter your spreads under certain conditions and have some artistic license in exiting/adjusting them, you might be able to use POT.

Let's say you've sold a SPX call credit spread and don't plan on holding to expiry, and in fact you don't want to hold the position longer than 3 weeks. You have some sort of adjustment planned for a market rally.

You're looking at the charts and notice strong support 30 points below the current market price (your profit exit), but no other s/r is noticeable. Barring any economic events, non-random movement is unpredictable in this case. Using the 3 week date you can now figure the likelihood of hitting your profit exit point. IOW, the POT is the best estimate of your probability of profit.

POT also gives you a gauge in forming an opinion on the "true" POE. For me it isn't enough to simply say that I don't think SPX will reach ### by a given date. I want to know what my chances are. I use POT in determining whether or not a point will be touched due to random fluctuation. Let's say it's 25% by a certain date. Then, I use my forecasts to determine the current p/l if that were to happen, as well as the likelihood of breaking through that s/r.

In the end, if my "weighted" probability of profit doesn't present a positive expectancy, then I look for a different trade.
 
Quote from jeffm:

POT, POE, etc are derived from formulas, yes. But those formula's include IV, which comes from option pricing, which reflects the sum-total opinions of all the market participants. You ask "why doesn't POE reflect obvious TA like support/resistance?" But the elliot wave guy is saying "Why doesn't POE reflect the obvious fact that we are in a 3rd wave down?" The answer to both questions is that it does reflect those things since it uses IV.

The question for you is, "Is the POE number important to me?" If you believe your TA gives you a better read on the market, should you even bother with POE? Its just a boiled down number that tries to reflect the current market. The TA world is replete with such numbers.

Jeff,

Do you have the formula for POT?
 
Quote from cdowis:

I have advised TOS to allow skewness in their probability analysis. Bell curve is largely useless when the market is near S/R. Have only see one software program which allows skewed probability curve.

Probability is especially of interest in calendars.

TOS doesn't use lognormal dist. for the probability calculation? I thought all the calculation should be based on lognormal dist.
 
Quote from yip1997:

Jeff,

Do you have the formula for POT?

I don't know the exact formula off the top of my head, but they talk about it on the tutorials when they explain the analyze page.
 
The market just felt like it was gonna lose steam going into the weekend so that is why I hesitated in adjusting the call spreads. I did take advantage and roll up the puts for some extra change. We will see how we do next week :D

Quote from optioncoach:

I will stick with August for now. I do not believe we will have enough steam to make new highs but then again the Fed is the wild card :)
 
Quote from yip1997:

Jeff,

Do you have the formula for POT?

Not sure there is a closed-form analytical solution for POT. However, take your pick of numerical methods: lattice models e.g. binomial, trinomial etc.

You can choose to assume the brownian motion stochastics for stock prices.

Or...just use ToS like everyone else :)

MoMoney.
 
Quote from Cache Landing:

I don't know the exact formula off the top of my head, but they talk about it on the tutorials when they explain the analyze page.

I read an article saying a lot of touch probability is not correct, and they are way off. I lost the article. The touch probability is very useful if you trade exotic like barrier options. Thats why traders like Riskarb has an edge when trading exotic if he has a better model.

I think 2 x delta is good-enough estimate, but I am not sure. You can use the TOS to verify it, esp when the probability is low.
 
Add a RUT Aug 650/Sep 630 P Diagonal for a debit of 2.75.

Really don't like to see a big debit to my account. Lets see how it evolves.
 
Quote from yip1997:

Add a RUT Aug 650/Sep 630 P Diagonal for a debit of 2.75.

Really don't like to see a big debit to my account. Lets see how it evolves.

LMAO. Think of it as an investment. It's not like the debit is gone forever...you can always cash in whenever you want!
 
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