One of your clients addressed the accounting irregularities....
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SpreadProfessor Clients - Thanks !
- Thread starter bone
- Start date
One of your clients addressed the accounting irregularities....
bone,
After reading up on the whole flame session, my 2 cents are with them.
1. You have clearly misrepresented your PnL, then shied away from confirming it. So perhaps you WERE touting your own horn. Because otherwise, NOONE would pay you 7,500 bucks for info they can dig up for free online. Its like going into a job with a fake resume. However in our industry its a much worse offence for obvious reasons.
2. Forged references and meaningless account verification. A guy here also posted his statement from IDENTICAL back office, where it clearly stated his PnL line items. All you had to do is do the same.
Sure, educating people is admirable, but at least make sure its not under the false pretences, because as I see it presently, all of your contracts with your customers are VOID based on this and if it goes to court with any of your clients, I believe you will get your licences revoked in a hurry.
After reading up on the whole flame session, my 2 cents are with them.
1. You have clearly misrepresented your PnL, then shied away from confirming it. So perhaps you WERE touting your own horn. Because otherwise, NOONE would pay you 7,500 bucks for info they can dig up for free online. Its like going into a job with a fake resume. However in our industry its a much worse offence for obvious reasons.
2. Forged references and meaningless account verification. A guy here also posted his statement from IDENTICAL back office, where it clearly stated his PnL line items. All you had to do is do the same.
Sure, educating people is admirable, but at least make sure its not under the false pretences, because as I see it presently, all of your contracts with your customers are VOID based on this and if it goes to court with any of your clients, I believe you will get your licences revoked in a hurry.
I've had over 100 clients who are also ET members, and if any of your BS accusations were true there would be more substance to your points posted by actual clients - not some anonymous troll with 14 posts total on this website. After 5 years as a Sponsor here on ET where are all the client complaints about misrepresentation and fraud and the wholesale use of "publicly accessible" materials available for free online as the core client deliverable ?
I wasnt adding an insult to injury, simply restating publicly available info that is available here. However, I have better things to do with my time then getting into "bone" picking
Good luck.
Good luck.
Hold on a second...there were at least two guys who complained about you in your thread. Stereo70 and another guy who said you lied about where he worked.
Carteblanche is the other guy's name. So what about him?
Cut and paste from Carteblanche. Says you lied about his job.
@ Convexx
Time to set a few things straight here I had been alerted to the rubbish you are talking about here .
(1)
I used Hamby in 2009 was the service of value ? probably not I was looking at alternatives and did spend 5K. In reality the 5K could have been spent on a multitude of things or account for months of TT subscription or another vendor service . So I wrote of the cost end of story
I am not getting involved in the resulting discussions about the service or otherwise I couldn't care less
(2)
I have never worked for GS so I dont know where that rubbish came from nor have I ever purported too simple that is basically bullshit i leave it at that .
(3)
I dont use Bloomberg I use Reuters so before you start slagging off about all and sundry and involving Partners be a little more careful.
I think that you can now continue to wax lyrical.
Convexx feel free to PM me any time but id get your ducks in a row sunshine.
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Feel free to get your brother or buddy working at an FCM who clears US registered prop futures trading firms to offer another opinion - it's been an unfulfilled offer from Baron for about ten weeks now. Baron has made it clear that as long as the viewpoint is proffered by a qualified person working with US registered prop future trading FCMs he's fine with it.
From Baron, ET Founder:
I received a response from a third party regarding the disputed statement so I am sharing it here. I'm not reopening this thread for further responses, but will continue to post opinions from emails sent to me by other third parties should they arrive.
Hello Baron,
My name is Patrick Agate. I am The risk manager and active partner with Prime International Trading. I have been the Risk manager since 2003 and active partner since 2011. We are a proprietary trading firm that mainly trades options on commodity futures. We also have several off floor spread traders within our firm.
All of our traders our independent contractors and they get paid a percentage of their profits earned at different intervals throughout the year based on the terms of their contract.
I am giving you some background on myself just to let you know that I am very clear on how prop deals work and I know how to read statements from clearing firms.
The statement in question is from advantage futures who my firm has used in the past to clear trades. Currently most of our business is cleared through Rosenthall Collins Group and New Edge. My point is that the clearing statements are all very similar and I deal with them on a daily basis.
On this statement from Advantage futures I see the beginning balance of 488,204.63 (US non reg) and then see the cash was swept out 486,124.63 on 1/2/7 for profits in 06.
It is pretty clear this account made some good money... If you have any further questions please let me know.
Pat Agate
Prime International Trading
Sep 22, 2014
#113
Post from Baron, ET Founder:
For 17 years, this site has always been ultra-critical of education providers, and rightly so. From my experience, most of them simply don't have what it takes to back up their claims of past performance and potential profitability. But I said most, not all. Although he has taken tons of heat over the years from a variety of different angles, I think bone has repeatedly demonstrated a level head by answering questions, providing statements and references, and generally being one of the rare education providers who actually tries to work through the criticism first instead of just complaining about it to me immediately.
I would also like to state for the record that bone has been a sponsor here for many years. And in that time, I've never had a single client of his contact me with one negative comment about him or his services. So although everybody may have different opinions about aspects of his education business, I think he's a big asset here at ET and has established a solid track record, especially given the extreme scrutiny he's faced.
Sep 22, 2014
From Baron, ET Founder:
I received a response from a third party regarding the disputed statement so I am sharing it here. I'm not reopening this thread for further responses, but will continue to post opinions from emails sent to me by other third parties should they arrive.
Hello Baron,
My name is Patrick Agate. I am The risk manager and active partner with Prime International Trading. I have been the Risk manager since 2003 and active partner since 2011. We are a proprietary trading firm that mainly trades options on commodity futures. We also have several off floor spread traders within our firm.
All of our traders our independent contractors and they get paid a percentage of their profits earned at different intervals throughout the year based on the terms of their contract.
I am giving you some background on myself just to let you know that I am very clear on how prop deals work and I know how to read statements from clearing firms.
The statement in question is from advantage futures who my firm has used in the past to clear trades. Currently most of our business is cleared through Rosenthall Collins Group and New Edge. My point is that the clearing statements are all very similar and I deal with them on a daily basis.
On this statement from Advantage futures I see the beginning balance of 488,204.63 (US non reg) and then see the cash was swept out 486,124.63 on 1/2/7 for profits in 06.
It is pretty clear this account made some good money... If you have any further questions please let me know.
Pat Agate
Prime International Trading
Sep 22, 2014
#113
Post from Baron, ET Founder:
For 17 years, this site has always been ultra-critical of education providers, and rightly so. From my experience, most of them simply don't have what it takes to back up their claims of past performance and potential profitability. But I said most, not all. Although he has taken tons of heat over the years from a variety of different angles, I think bone has repeatedly demonstrated a level head by answering questions, providing statements and references, and generally being one of the rare education providers who actually tries to work through the criticism first instead of just complaining about it to me immediately.
I would also like to state for the record that bone has been a sponsor here for many years. And in that time, I've never had a single client of his contact me with one negative comment about him or his services. So although everybody may have different opinions about aspects of his education business, I think he's a big asset here at ET and has established a solid track record, especially given the extreme scrutiny he's faced.
Sep 22, 2014
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putladder and all the other haters, if you want to PUT your faith in Stereo70 as a disgruntled client, I'll give you that. But consider the source:
An email from Patrick, aka "Stereo 70" dated 09/12/12:
( And I quote with absolutely no editing or redaction )
Pete,
I'm beyond embarrassed to ask this but I'm almost broke and more
depressed than I've been in my entire life.
I hold you in high esteem and know that I alone completely fucked my
life up. I just don't know what to do: my 5 securites licenses have
expired, my old boss is no longer a boss, and I haven't been able to
land a job. I've sold most of what I can - car, stereo, all my
records, etc.
The IRS took some of my money over the winter due to a tax situation
from 2003. That was debilitating.
I don't think I'm cut out to be an independent trader and my
confidence/self-esteem is about zero right now. I've been going to
therapy which I hate, but it's helped some.
So I'm asking if it's remotely possible for you to return some/all of
my fee as I don't have many resources left. Both my parents have
passed and I don't have family nearby.
At age 43 I am really scared, probably for the first time in my adult life.
Please accept my advance apology for putting you in this awkward
position. You've been nothing but professional, reliable, and helpful
while I seemingly jerked off. My lessons have been quite expensive
both emotionally and financially.
Regardless of your decision, thank you.
Patrick
Here's another email dated 03/21/13, from Patrick ( stereo 70 ) entitled:
( And I quote with absolutely no editing or redaction )
Pulled my head out of my ass I think
Pete,
I've moved to NYC and would like to trade if I can find a place. I
could use some help. Would you be willing to call me and talk about
some of this?
Thanks,
Patrick
An email from Patrick, aka "Stereo 70" dated 09/12/12:
( And I quote with absolutely no editing or redaction )
Pete,
I'm beyond embarrassed to ask this but I'm almost broke and more
depressed than I've been in my entire life.
I hold you in high esteem and know that I alone completely fucked my
life up. I just don't know what to do: my 5 securites licenses have
expired, my old boss is no longer a boss, and I haven't been able to
land a job. I've sold most of what I can - car, stereo, all my
records, etc.
The IRS took some of my money over the winter due to a tax situation
from 2003. That was debilitating.
I don't think I'm cut out to be an independent trader and my
confidence/self-esteem is about zero right now. I've been going to
therapy which I hate, but it's helped some.
So I'm asking if it's remotely possible for you to return some/all of
my fee as I don't have many resources left. Both my parents have
passed and I don't have family nearby.
At age 43 I am really scared, probably for the first time in my adult life.
Please accept my advance apology for putting you in this awkward
position. You've been nothing but professional, reliable, and helpful
while I seemingly jerked off. My lessons have been quite expensive
both emotionally and financially.
Regardless of your decision, thank you.
Patrick
Here's another email dated 03/21/13, from Patrick ( stereo 70 ) entitled:
( And I quote with absolutely no editing or redaction )
Pulled my head out of my ass I think
Pete,
I've moved to NYC and would like to trade if I can find a place. I
could use some help. Would you be willing to call me and talk about
some of this?
Thanks,
Patrick
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And if I have had a just two or three less-than-satisfied clients out of 125 plus - myself and ANY OTHER business would GLADLY take that ratio.
Funny how the haters and trolls concentrate on the negative and choose to ignore the positive. Search my user member name and you will find the positives which you choose to ignore:
RockMachine:
At the risk of voiding my contract with Bone, I wanted to give an unbiased opinion of Spreadprofessor's service.
1. The price is high = yes. However, as stated Bone ONLY wants experienced traders. Well, experienced traders are MUCH harder to train because you have to un-train them first. New clients after a few weeks/months are encouraged to post their trade setups. Often, they show head and shoulder and archaic setups with multiple squiggly lines, etc. Myself, I had a nasty habit of placing tight stops, which every few months I revert to. Point is, Bone didn't teach this stuff.
2. The Guy really cares = Hell Yes! I'm on my 10th month of a 6month contract. Why? because I'm not ready.
But to be clear, I contribute and I want it!
3. The $500k trade issue = Don't know. Semantics wise, if I were to make x$ in say the "Crack spread" for 2013, I would phrase it " I made X$ trading the Crack Spread last year. "
4. Is this the Turtle Experiment = Kinda. Richard Dennis said that he could publish his strategy in print and MOST people would lose money. In fact his original group has some who prospered and others who crashed.
Weakest link is always the trader.
5. Overall, Bone's experience and knowledge of spread trading in 2014 is easily top 10,5,3 in the world. However, if you trade automated by ticks and turnover 100's of trades per day, then you will need to be un-trained, unless of course your infrastructure budget can compete with the big boys.
6. Finally, I have met and worked with a few people on ET, some were good, others would eat their children for $500..YOU KNOW who you are.. As for Bone, he's legit and cares and is very cautious as to working with the right people and especially before he lets you trade live.
Eudamonia:
As a current client I made my decision regarding Bone's services based on discussions with his references (former clients). Were they able to apply what Bone taught them and derive an edge? And the answer to that was yes - although it would require a lot of work on my part to learn the system (hence why it is a 6+ month contract).
Currently, after four months of simulated trading I'm sitting on a 70% win ratio with a 1:1 reward to risk. Several other traders have shown their results in our trading room of their own trading that is similar or in some cases better. After a few more months I will switch over to live and anticipate I'll see similar results in a live account (because I have accounted for commissions and slippage in my estimates).
I don't believe that my $7,500 has been anything but an excellent investment and highly recommend Bone's services.
R1234:
I signed up with spread professor last year. When I first signed up I must admit I was a bit concerned it might be a waste of money or maybe even a scam. But as I began adding his method to my existing methods I can say it does add value and I have more than made back my investment. His method is legit if used consistently and does carry an edge.
J:Law:
For all the naysayers & harsh critics of Bone & his spreadprofessor services....not only are his offers legitimate & sound. His ethics compass is intact & oriented in the right direction. If you are on the fence about working with him, just know that he has his feet on the ground & you will walk away from the experience with a greater knowledge of futures, spreading & tradecraft in general.
Funny how the haters and trolls concentrate on the negative and choose to ignore the positive. Search my user member name and you will find the positives which you choose to ignore:
RockMachine:
At the risk of voiding my contract with Bone, I wanted to give an unbiased opinion of Spreadprofessor's service.
1. The price is high = yes. However, as stated Bone ONLY wants experienced traders. Well, experienced traders are MUCH harder to train because you have to un-train them first. New clients after a few weeks/months are encouraged to post their trade setups. Often, they show head and shoulder and archaic setups with multiple squiggly lines, etc. Myself, I had a nasty habit of placing tight stops, which every few months I revert to. Point is, Bone didn't teach this stuff.
2. The Guy really cares = Hell Yes! I'm on my 10th month of a 6month contract. Why? because I'm not ready.
But to be clear, I contribute and I want it!
3. The $500k trade issue = Don't know. Semantics wise, if I were to make x$ in say the "Crack spread" for 2013, I would phrase it " I made X$ trading the Crack Spread last year. "
4. Is this the Turtle Experiment = Kinda. Richard Dennis said that he could publish his strategy in print and MOST people would lose money. In fact his original group has some who prospered and others who crashed.
Weakest link is always the trader.
5. Overall, Bone's experience and knowledge of spread trading in 2014 is easily top 10,5,3 in the world. However, if you trade automated by ticks and turnover 100's of trades per day, then you will need to be un-trained, unless of course your infrastructure budget can compete with the big boys.
6. Finally, I have met and worked with a few people on ET, some were good, others would eat their children for $500..YOU KNOW who you are.. As for Bone, he's legit and cares and is very cautious as to working with the right people and especially before he lets you trade live.
Eudamonia:
As a current client I made my decision regarding Bone's services based on discussions with his references (former clients). Were they able to apply what Bone taught them and derive an edge? And the answer to that was yes - although it would require a lot of work on my part to learn the system (hence why it is a 6+ month contract).
Currently, after four months of simulated trading I'm sitting on a 70% win ratio with a 1:1 reward to risk. Several other traders have shown their results in our trading room of their own trading that is similar or in some cases better. After a few more months I will switch over to live and anticipate I'll see similar results in a live account (because I have accounted for commissions and slippage in my estimates).
I don't believe that my $7,500 has been anything but an excellent investment and highly recommend Bone's services.
R1234:
I signed up with spread professor last year. When I first signed up I must admit I was a bit concerned it might be a waste of money or maybe even a scam. But as I began adding his method to my existing methods I can say it does add value and I have more than made back my investment. His method is legit if used consistently and does carry an edge.
J:Law:
For all the naysayers & harsh critics of Bone & his spreadprofessor services....not only are his offers legitimate & sound. His ethics compass is intact & oriented in the right direction. If you are on the fence about working with him, just know that he has his feet on the ground & you will walk away from the experience with a greater knowledge of futures, spreading & tradecraft in general.
You aren't a rapper. You don't have haters. Just a bunch of guys asking questions.
Cut and paste from Carteblanche. Says you lied about his job.
@ Convexx
Time to set a few things straight here I had been alerted to the rubbish you are talking about here .
(1)
I used Hamby in 2009 was the service of value ? probably not I was looking at alternatives and did spend 5K. In reality the 5K could have been spent on a multitude of things or account for months of TT subscription or another vendor service . So I wrote of the cost end of story
I am not getting involved in the resulting discussions about the service or otherwise I couldn't care less
(2)
I have never worked for GS so I dont know where that rubbish came from nor have I ever purported too simple that is basically bullshit i leave it at that .
(3)
I dont use Bloomberg I use Reuters so before you start slagging off about all and sundry and involving Partners be a little more careful.
I think that you can now continue to wax lyrical.
Convexx feel free to PM me any time but id get your ducks in a row sunshine.
Cut and paste from Carteblanche. Says you lied about his job.
@ Convexx
Time to set a few things straight here I had been alerted to the rubbish you are talking about here .
(1)
I used Hamby in 2009 was the service of value ? probably not I was looking at alternatives and did spend 5K. In reality the 5K could have been spent on a multitude of things or account for months of TT subscription or another vendor service . So I wrote of the cost end of story
I am not getting involved in the resulting discussions about the service or otherwise I couldn't care less
(2)
I have never worked for GS so I dont know where that rubbish came from nor have I ever purported too simple that is basically bullshit i leave it at that .
(3)
I dont use Bloomberg I use Reuters so before you start slagging off about all and sundry and involving Partners be a little more careful.
I think that you can now continue to wax lyrical.
Convexx feel free to PM me any time but id get your ducks in a row sunshine.