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[bone]

I received an interesting response from an exchange official when I queried him why a substantial, top-tier privately held proprietary trading group would have a very modest broker/dealer filing with the SEC and FINRA. His response made sense. His explanation was that if a firm's trader required a broker/dealer status in order to accomplish some sort of equities-related arbitrage spread, that the firm would typically set up a broker/dealer subsidiary and only fund it to the extent that the particular trader required in order to execute his trade.

For example, DRW Trading Group is a privately held proprietary trading firm based out of Chicago that has four offices and five hundred employees. And they are definitely a top-tier proprietary trading group - no reasonable person could argue the point. http://drw.com/about-us/

Yet, in 2012, DRW was fined by the CBOE for operating as a broker-dealer under SEC Rules and allowing their minimum net capital to fall below $250K.

http://www.cboe.com/publish/DisDecision/11-0042.pdf

So this entire notion that a public filing like a SEC broker/dealer filing will define the relative size of a privately-held, upper tier proprietary trading firm just does not hold water.

Same thing with setting up a shell subsidiary to trade power in an ISO like PJM. The margin capital that a proprietary trading firm's power trading subsidiary company reports to the ISO does not necessarily reflect the size of the parent firm. If you will recall, there were a few prominent HF's that had limited financial liability regarding PJM power trading losses because of their subsidiary's limited capitalization and that is another great case study regarding this.

 

[Junior_CTA]

Your life must be miserable. You are the biggest troll on ET.

You are referring to your friend, Pat Agate? The guy representing himself as a partner at Prime -- the prop-firm with $4MM in partner eq? More fiction; just like the $486K. I don't care if Warren Buffett blesses the thing... it's not PNL.

 

[convexx]

I received an interesting response from an exchange official when I queried him why a substantial, top-tier privately held proprietary trading group would have a very modest broker/dealer filing with the SEC and FINRA. His response made sense. His explanation was that if a firm's trader required a broker/dealer status in order to accomplish some sort of equities-related arbitrage spread, that the firm would typically set up a broker/dealer subsidiary and only fund it to the extent that the particular trader required in order to execute his trade.

For example, DRW Trading Group is a privately held proprietary trading firm based out of Chicago that has four offices and five hundred employees. And they are definitely a top-tier proprietary trading group - no reasonable person could argue the point. http://drw.com/about-us/

Yet, in 2012, DRW was fined by the CBOE for operating as a broker-dealer under SEC Rules and allowing their minimum net capital to fall below $250K.

http://www.cboe.com/publish/DisDecision/11-0042.pdf

So this entire notion that a public filing like a SEC broker/dealer filing will define the relative size of a privately-held, upper tier proprietary trading firm just does not hold water.

Same thing with setting up a shell subsidiary to trade power in an ISO like PJM. The margin capital that a proprietary trading firm's power trading subsidiary company reports to the ISO does not necessarily reflect the size of the parent firm. If you will recall, there were a few prominent HF's that had limited financial liability regarding PJM power trading losses because of their subsidiary's limited capitalization and that is another great case study regarding this.

You're wrong.

Prime does has a smaller SEC-reg equity sub (Prime INTL Sec), but it has virtually no capital. PIT, LTD. is the parent. Prime is laughably small. All of the data is available on the regulatory sites.

 

[bone]

You're wrong.

Prime does has a smaller SEC-reg equity sub, but it has virtually no capital. PIT, LTD. is the parent. Prime is laughably small. All of the data is available on the regulatory sites.

As Baron has stated to you twice, you still haven't offered any credible third party with expertise on proprietary futures trading statements as an alternative viewpoint to Baron. And it's been a week, now.

You are, in fact, confirming to every reader a very unbalanced personal emotional persona. You need to bully, and troll, and taunt, and harass, and libel, and lie in order to help yourself regulate your own anxiety. All bullies are in their hearts insecure weaklings. Such a man with a keyboard and an alias. Coward.

 

[convexx]

As Baron has stated to you twice, you still haven't offered any credible third party with expertise on proprietary futures trading statements as an alternative viewpoint to Baron. And it's been a week, now.

You are, in fact, confirming to every reader a very unbalanced personal emotional persona. You need to bully, and troll, and taunt, and harass, and libel, and lie in order to help yourself regulate your own anxiety. All bullies are in their hearts insecure weaklings.

Baron doesn't have any experience in these matters and is relying on your friend Pat who is covering for you. Pat is not a partner in the firm. He is a friend of yours. Of course it's meaningless and immaterial to the $486K debit. What Baron believes is also immaterial to the topic at-hand. But hey, it's his site!

The facts are that it would take you five minutes to prove PNL, but you refuse to do so. You are the one advertising fraud on your own site.

You offered to bet me and then had my response deleted. Obviously this is not a fair playing-field, so I will leave you to your absurd lies. This post will be deleted, anyway.

Libel? Sue me for libel. Let's get it all out in the open.

 

[bone]

Baron doesn't have any experience in these matters and is relying on your friend Pat who is covering for you. Pat is not a partner in the firm. He is a friend of yours. Of course it's meaningless and immaterial to the $486K debit. What Baron believes is also immaterial to the topic at-hand. But hey, it's his site!

The facts are that it would take you five minutes to prove PNL, but you refuse to do so. You are the one advertising fraud on your own site.

You offered to bet me and then had my response deleted. Obviously this is not a fair playing-field, so I will leave you to your absurd lies. This post will be deleted, anyway.

Libel? Sue me for libel. Let's get it all out in the open.

1. I have NEVER asked Baron to delete one of your posts, nor have I asked him to ban you. Ask him directly if you have the balls. Again, if you and all the other trolls repeat lies hundreds of times, it must turn into the accepted truth at some point.

2. If you're such the champion of truth, why did you so quickly edit out your original comment regarding a personal description of Baron in your post above ? I'm sure that Baron would have been delighted to have read it.

3. A scam or a fraud means that I am ripping people off. ET has a very vocal and opinionated membership. I have been sponsoring ET for five years now. Where are all the aggrieved parties and regulatory complaints ? Are you calling Baron a liar with respect to him stating categorically last week that he had not heard a complaint directly from a client complaining about getting scammed or ripped off somehow ?

 

[bone]

Convexx, for the record, I told Baron that I thought you were an asset to ET because you posted quality content in your Journal. I stated to Baron that what ET needed was more quality trading content posted like the journal content you were posting, and a whole lot less personal attacks and trolling.

 

[convexx]

1. I have NEVER asked Baron to delete one of your posts, nor have I asked him to ban you. Ask him directly if you have the balls. Again, if you and all the other trolls repeat lies hundreds of times, it must turn into the accepted truth at some point.

2. If you're such the champion of truth, why did you so quickly edit out your original comment regarding a personal description of Baron in your post above ? I'm sure that Baron would have been delighted to have read it.

3. A scam or a fraud means that I am ripping people off. ET has a very vocal and opinionated membership. I have been sponsoring ET for five years now. Where are all the aggrieved parties and regulatory complaints ? Are you calling Baron a liar with respect to him stating categorically last week that he had not heard a complaint directly from a client complaining about getting scammed or ripped off somehow ?

Balls? lol I asked publicly. He's glued to this thread, so if he wants to add anything in contradiction to what I have stated, then let him post. It's not my job to hound the guy in PM. This is far more transparent. Ban me? Please. Freedom, horrible freedom.

I added the last line and never edited anything re: Baron. IOW, nothing was removed. If so, show it.

The $486K from the run and using said-figure to extract a fee is misrepresentation. Some would call it fraud. It would be a simple task to provide proof of PNL. You refuse to do so -- so you should remove the run from your site. What you're doing is a violation of NFA regs. I don't care how many buddies you roll-out to prove what's impossible to prove (from the Advantage run). Most of the audience that would be interested in your service are obviously not going to understand what the number means... and what it doesn't. They see $486K and think, "wow, he's actually made a half mil!"

I am not hounding you because I have an edge here (I do). You stated that I was "humiliated" when in fact I had posted my response to this Agate idiocy a few minutes after Baron posted the note from your friend.

I am trying to let it go as my irrefutable argument has been stated. You are emboldened to continue your BS by the site owner's implicit-protection. I certainly don't blame him for protecting a portion of his revenue. He certainly doesn't get shit from me besides some page-hits.

 

[convexx]

3. A scam or a fraud means that I am ripping people off. ET has a very vocal and opinionated membership. I have been sponsoring ET for five years now. Where are all the aggrieved parties and regulatory complaints ? Are you calling Baron a liar with respect to him stating categorically last week that he had not heard a complaint directly from a client complaining about getting scammed or ripped off somehow ?

I don't have a clue if Baron has received any complaints. I would absolutely take Baron at his word that he has not.

I have. It's in my inbox and from a member who has been here since 2006. "One of your first clients" he told me. I would be happy to send you a redacted copy of it. Drop me a PM and I will forward the (redacted) copy.

 

[bone]

I am trying to let it go as my irrefutable argument has been stated.

Which means that you and all the other trolls with an agenda simply can't find a third-party expert on proprietary trading statements to support you. You've had a week to find somebody and forward them to Baron.

If I was in violation of a regulation - why have I not been contacted about it ?