SPOOFING is LEGAL light gray area after NY Judges ruling

REDP1800 said:
What to expect
1. potential widened spreads due to more mkt cancels than ever as well as a live order book with lots mroe fake liquidity and orders. It will take a littel while to ramp up, but competition will be fierce and some new algo's will be unleashed.. lotsof prop firms licking thier chops and adding back in those weird lines of code to move the market.
2. Maybe just maybe the power of the HFT wasn't enoug to hold up our failing stock market like it did since 2008 when reg nms was invented.
3. Imagine an orchestrated Government collusion to keep our stock up no matter what happens. I am not talking about the fed.. how do you combat the FED unwind.. well you control the mkt with HFT. The problem has been HFT has always spoofed but they were getting worried about possible legal ramifications and jail time etc. or being banned so now.. the market is falling and falling fast. HFT complains.. hey we are getting blamed for the mkt losses when all we have done the past 10 years is keep going up with almost no volatility. SO the GOV. says.. what do yo need.. well if we can bring back spoofing then we can get this mkt back into bull territory! how de we go about doing this? well a landmark case needs to be thrown out and embarass the cftc and let us spoof!!
BE ready for the marekt to stage a miraculous recovery into CHRISTMAS and buy the dip is back in style and it will continue because no matter what .. TUMP will not let CHINA win and we need our stocks up and people buying at Christamas.
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LOL, what do you mean, Imagine an orchestrated collusion to manipulate the price of a stock or commodity ? It happened yesterday, you even called it and it was quite obvious what was happening, bogus cancelled orders pre hours, then a " bounce back " happened once human traders got on in morning and realized the algo's stop loss selloff was bs. Spoofing happens quite often, you know this... Only patsy's that need to take the fall once in a while get caught, metals was and still is directly manipulated by the fed and a lot of big banks, they short it to death to reduce price, and unwind positions to raise, metal prices are 100 % controlled, there is absolutely no free market in that arena. This guy was a fall guy, normally banks only pay fines when caught manipulating.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/form...lty-commodities-fraud-and-spoofing-conspiracy
 
Stockolio said:
LOL, what do you mean, Imagine an orchestrated collusion to manipulate the price of a stock or commodity ? It happened yesterday, you even called it and it was quite obvious what was happening, bogus cancelled orders pre hours, then a " bounce back " happened once human traders got on in morning and realized the algo's stop loss selloff was bs. Spoofing happens quite often, you know this... Only patsy's that need to take the fall once in a while get caught, metals was and still is directly manipulated by the fed and a lot of big banks, they short it to death to reduce price, and unwind positions to raise, metal prices are 100 % controlled, there is absolutely no free market in that arena. This guy was a fall guy, normally banks only pay fines when caught manipulating.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/form...lty-commodities-fraud-and-spoofing-conspiracy
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2015-04-22/why-is-spoofing-bad-
 
Oh yeah, they’ve been going after banks and prop firms HARD For spoofing.

(Which is NOT what DRW was accused by the CFTC of doing btw).

One big bank a couple years ago paid a big fine and was told if they did it again they’d be banned from the CME. (Which is huge because every customer they have and broker trades for uses CME products)

Geneva Trading, which is a Chicago Prop Firm, was fined $1.5M and told if they did it again they’d be banned.

Deutsche Bank, UBS, Bank of Nova Scotia - they’ve all been pinched.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/form...lty-commodities-fraud-and-spoofing-conspiracy

https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/7818-18

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/finance-banking/chicago-trading-firm-fined-15-million-spoofing

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch...poofing-plea-0603-biz-20170601-story,amp.html

https://www.cmegroup.com/notices/di...-1-joerik-financial-pte-ltd.html#pageNumber=1

https://www.cmegroup.com/notices/di...0640-bc-2-jimmy-ng-kian-bin.html#pageNumber=1
 
Here’s the actual section of US law that makes spoofing illegal. I can’t see how the DRW Case has any bearing on this.

Section 4c(a)(5)© of the Commodity Exchange Act (CEA) makes it unlawful for “[a]ny person to engage in any trading, practice, or conduct on or subject to the rules of a registered entity that…is, is of the character of, or is commonly known to the trade as, ‘spoofing’ (bidding or offering with the intent to cancel the bid or offer before execution).”
 
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bone said:
Oh yeah, they’ve been going after banks and prop firms HARD For spoofing.

(Which is NOT what DRW was accused by the CFTC of doing btw).

One big bank a couple years ago paid a big fine and was told if they did it again they’d be banned from the CME. (Which is huge because every customer they have and broker trades for uses CME products)

Geneva Trading, which is a Chicago Prop Firm, was fined $1.5M and told if they did it again they’d be banned.

Deutsche Bank, UBS, Bank of Nova Scotia - they’ve all been pinched.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/form...lty-commodities-fraud-and-spoofing-conspiracy

https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/7818-18

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/finance-banking/chicago-trading-firm-fined-15-million-spoofing

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ch...poofing-plea-0603-biz-20170601-story,amp.html

https://www.cmegroup.com/notices/di...-1-joerik-financial-pte-ltd.html#pageNumber=1

https://www.cmegroup.com/notices/di...0640-bc-2-jimmy-ng-kian-bin.html#pageNumber=1
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but not anymore.. INTENT can not be proven in the court of law by cancelling an order. The idea that you allow investors or trades to put orders on a book and delete ?cacncel orders on a book means that people can do whatever they want within that book with no ramifications. because how can you expect a human to even know exactly what it's intent was a seond agoa or a millisecond ago? you cannot and if you pit a human against an algorithm and the algo can change it's mind or intent based on the live order book within microsecodns based on data then a human even slower has had more time to chagne it's mind or intent. you do not have to havbe intent to trade by placing orders on teh order book. that was proved by this precedent settign court case. so retail should be using more cancels and limit orders constantly.. palce wait a few seconds and cancel.. this way it isn't as easy for the quatns and hft and the other big cta's e and ehdge funds to see what is going on.. that was my point.. to make it even mroe random.. with a bunch literally possibly thousands to milliosn more orders and cancels for the machines to sift through and analyze.. however we all know.. the same because retail doesn't ahv ethe money or resources to properly analyze the swift microsecodn changes of the order book.
 
REDP1800 said:
but not anymore.. INTENT can not be proven in the court of law by cancelling an order. The idea that you allow investors or trades to put orders on a book and delete ?cacncel orders on a book means that people can do whatever they want within that book with no ramifications. because how can you expect a human to even know exactly what it's intent was a seond agoa or a millisecond ago?...
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The only way this can ever be alleviated is if somehow the exchanges implemented a hard rule that once your order is entered into the book, it cannot be cancelled/changed after X amount of time. Say, 5 seconds? 3 seconds? 10 seconds? Imagine the chaos that would cause. Wow.

What the hell, they should try it for a month.
 
Overnight said:
The only way this can ever be alleviated is if somehow the exchanges implemented a hard rule that once your order is entered into the book, it cannot be cancelled after X amount of time. Say, 5 seconds? 3 seconds? 10 seconds? Imagine the chaos that would cause. Wow.

What the hell, they should try it for a month.
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I agree but it could never be that long.. you are on the right path.. if it was a half second (500 MS) or a qtr of a second (250ms) that would be long enough for orders on teh book to be REAL and it would be long enough for ordrsw on the book to be cancelled. and if you palced a limit order you would HAVE INTENT at least for 500 ms or 250 ms because you couldn't cancel it in that micro time period. why did you pick such large amounts of time ? 5 or 10 seconds woouldn't be short enough. you still hve to have time to cancel.. jsut shouldn't be right after you fill a retail order and before th retial guy even knwos he is filled.. you cacnel all teh bids below his filled buy so you can (HFT) profit when the mkt sells off slighly and you buy back passively agains the new aggressive sells.. see THEY must cancel bids in order to weaken the oprice to go lower so they can take the oppsoite side and buy off the new sells. YOU Can only indiuce this by "cacnelling" if the limit order book was a brick wall.. then cacnelling would pull brikcs out of it.. weakening it. You always cancel on the side you want the mkt to move towards because it is out of equilibrium and weak.. so physics tells you about entropy and entropy in gauss and pois distributions. anyway .. the marekt uses cacnels to weaken one side or the other.. this is FACT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_entropy_probability_distribution
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1106/1106.4957.pdf
 
bone said:
Here’s Citigroup, who paid a $25M fine and was told if they did it again - they would be banned from the CME. Which means they’d lose all their prime brokerage customers.

https://www.ft.com/content/aa943ab4-de60-11e6-9d7c-be108f1c1dce
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LOL.. you need to stop believeing everything you read like a SHEEP! they want you to believe that.. 25 million is NOTHING to citibank they make billions trading.. duh.. they put taht stuff out there so that YOU AND ME think that it si a fair and level playing field and that the big boys are being watched and fined. you are joking with yourself if you really think any of that matters. stop thinking that way and you will start to understand this market in it's real terms. I am not saying i am the master by anymeans but it took me forever to realize that in life.. it truly is stragner than fiction and what you are 'FED" by the informatin or regulatory bodies is actually not to be taken at face value. no HUGE volume firm has ever been banned for life. just individual traders who figured out how to game their game LIKE Sareo who NOW after this monumental great court case.. never did anything wrong by being SMARTER!! this case is a win win for retail.. start placing limit orders and cancel them all teh time and mix up the book. that is what needs to be done.. then jsut buy or sell at mkt when you want to make a trade
 
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