Soon MAN will be a GOD! HA!

Quote from Doubter:I think you are responding to two, at least in my mind, entirely different and unrelated posts. Your response above, I believe, was about the background of a psychologist assigned by a major city hospital to evaluate an acquaintance of mine who was being observed with bipolar symptoms ("oh so very respectable child molesting bible teacher christian spiritualist priest psychologists").
I don't know the assigned psychologist personally but others that do, don't seem to think much of your characterization.
That is the "what wrong exactly?".

The other post which cited a study on child molestation by priests and public school system employees was really posted to say that basically human beings do rotten things and institutions or organizations that are made up of human beings have rotten things happen in them. This is in no way an attempt to minimalize these atrocious activities by anyone that practices them. They must be dealt with on an individual basis, unless the organization can be shown to be fostering or promoting these actions. These things can and should be handled early on by an active and thoughtful leadership. Although some dislike accountability it is necessary in many circumstances and it can and should head off the horrible molestations that are occurring.
At least it should keep the numbers from getting as out of hand as they seem to be in many quarters.
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To be fair Doubter, I did reference your quotes in my replies, it should not be difficult to differentiate the relation to each, but I do see where things might be a little ambiguous as far as the psychologist goes. So let me explain myself and spell it out...

I responded to your cut & pastings which I am saying are trying to shift emphasis from priests, who are proven to have practised paedophilia, to teachers - who have not.

The priests were found out en-mass, teachers were not accused in this manner until the priests were found out , nor has any bona fide claim been made that teachers have committed such crimes in this way.

I am saying that the tactics you have so clearly demonstrated, of jumping on dubious statistical reports and so called scientific experiments, are typical of the religious/church mindset, trying to detach itself by attempting an unjustified shifting of emphasis.

Unless you wanted to be particularly perverse by misrepresenting my phrase "oh so very respectable child molesting bible teacher christian spiritualist priest psychologists", then it is obvious that your cut& paste stuff, which comes accross in the context of the thread to the point at which you posted it, is a bunch of pretty much meaningless statistical rhetoric.

But it results in suggesting that child molesters have an overwhelming chance of being Christian - teacher - priests,... as 70% of Americans say they are Christians and by extension 70% of teachers are Christians and in fact, a whole bunch of priests ARE child molesters!!

To my mind it is frivolous to then say, as you do, "human beings do rotten things" when it is predominantly Christian - teacher - priests who do rotten things (according to your own c&p and your latest comments) and this is why I extended it to very respectable child molesting bible teacher christian spiritualist priest psychologists. You could add engine drivers, street cleaners, futures traders to that line, according to your argument ...that was the point I was emphasizing....

It was NOT teachers who have been found out for such crimes against humanity, it was NOT psychologists, it was NOT the general population of human beings. It WAS perverted, sick minded men of God who did those awful things to children.

By the way, the scientific psychologist, who examined your aquaintence with his bipolar thingybobs, if he were a true scientist, would not make such bland assumption and generalised comments, or jump to such unrealistic conclusions,.... if he were being true to the scientific method. Assuming of course he was capable of being true to it , and his mindset was not the closed one of a pre suppositionalist religionist!
 
But it results in suggesting that child molesters have an overwhelming chance of being Christian - teacher - priests,... as 70% of Americans say they are Christians and by extension 70% of teachers are Christians and in fact, a whole bunch of priests ARE child molesters!!

To my mind it is frivolous to then say, as you do, "human beings do rotten things" when it is predominantly Christian - teacher - priests who do rotten things (according to your own c&p and your latest comments) and this is why I extended it to very respectable child molesting bible teacher christian spiritualist priest psychologists.
stu
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I guess you're right only atheists are pure enough to not be infected with any of this behavior that us lower humans seem to all have.

Don't forget that the extension from the supposed 70% is yours and not mine and I still don't see how that got over to the psychologist who you so perversely described.
 
Quote from Doubter:

But it results in suggesting that child molesters have an overwhelming chance of being Christian - teacher - priests,... as 70% of Americans say they are Christians and by extension 70% of teachers are Christians and in fact, a whole bunch of priests ARE child molesters!!

To my mind it is frivolous to then say, as you do, "human beings do rotten things" when it is predominantly Christian - teacher - priests who do rotten things (according to your own c&p and your latest comments) and this is why I extended it to very respectable child molesting bible teacher christian spiritualist priest psychologists.
stu
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I guess you're right only atheists are pure enough to not be infected with any of this behavior that us lower humans seem to all have.

Don't forget that the extension from the supposed 70% is yours and not mine and I still don't see how that got over to the psychologist who you so perversely described.
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what is it with this chip on your shoulder all the time?

If 70% of the population professes to be Christian and hold what they describe as christian values which is in turn said to underpin society, it is the same christian nation which is producing christian paedophile priests. The extension I made is therefore valid.

It is the same christian society suggesting its own christian teachers, or christian "..school employees" (a purposely unspecific reference, encompassing teachers to janitors?!!) are abusing students, to the extent of an estimated roughly 290,000 students.

So is this Charol Shakeshaft, the Hofstra University scholar, whose report relies upon rough estimates to supposedly form reliable conclusions , to be taken in any way as a supplier of useful information on how school teachers are alleged to act in comparison to a church riddled with proven paedophile priests !!??

What makes me laugh is, it is you who has dug this hole for yourself, with that ridiculous, spurious statistical cut&paqste blame shifter so called report, and now you keep on digging, trying again to drag some other people or groups into things, with nothing more than a cheap attempt at sardonic remark.

Well if christians can go around committing all this abuse, then perhaps it is time for this society to stop the feeble subservience to a mystical being, which christianity and religion in general requires, along with the subsequent endeavour to rationalize away these atrocities.

This God stuff is often used to help avoid personal responsibility. So the criminal priests can be diluted into all of humanity by God apologists, and blame is then conveniently apportioned to everyone. One particular group or person commits moral outrage... suddenly everyone is a sinner, we are all sinners, all guilty!

You are content to sacrifice moral responsibility in order to be able to put your God above it, everyone else below it, then atheists are equally guilty for the sins of christian priests,... teachers or psychologists are equally responsible for the acts of paedophile church leaders!
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There is nothing perverse in my questioning the conclusions of a psychologist who uses assumption and generalised comments to arrive at their own suppositions. What is a little more perverse is that I use the word perverse in my post, although I do not accuse you of perversion, you then accuse me of perversion!! LOL

The apologists’ defence pattern is thereby displayed as fixed. The auto-self-righteous mechanical reaction kicks in.... J'accuse, coupled with the churches’ always blame others syndrome.

I say it is your own religiosity which is at fault, for the way you try to use it to absolve or diminish responsibility by spreading blame. You deny the aspiration for humanity to rise above all wrong doing, because the religionist makes his God above everything and humanity below everything, always sinful even when not, and culpable for all that is deemed to be wrong.
 
what is it with this chip on your shoulder all the time?
stu
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Might I not ask the same question? Of course with you it is harmless niggling but with others it is a serious chip. Logical?

My chip against bigoted atheists probably started in junior high when an atheist teacher continually molested the little girls and after our continued complaints to an also atheist administrator nothing was ever done to even stop the molestation.

I've never been around any priests so I can't have any experience there.
 
This God stuff is often used to help avoid personal responsibility. So the criminal priests can be diluted into all of humanity by God apologists, and blame is then conveniently apportioned to everyone. One particular group or person commits moral outrage... suddenly everyone is a sinner, we are all sinners, all guilty!
stu
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This can go both ways. I thought my point was that it was a case of personal responsibility "committed by humans" and it should be dealt with on a case by case basis. I certainly did not mean to apportion it to everyone. My point meant that if you try to punish the whole church you probably won't be very successful but if you focus on guilty individuals your success rate should go up. Our purpose should be to as best we can stop the molestation and the most effective method should be employed. That is what I thought I said in my comment on the parent organization fostering or promoting the practice. If they are promoting the practice then go after them but if it is negligence your time would be better spent in going after the perpetrators.
 
Quote from Doubter:

what is it with this chip on your shoulder all the time?
stu
_______________________________________

Might I not ask the same question? Of course with you it is harmless niggling but with others it is a serious chip. Logical?

My chip against bigoted atheists probably started in junior high when an atheist teacher continually molested the little girls and after our continued complaints to an also atheist administrator nothing was ever done to even stop the molestation.

I've never been around any priests so I can't have any experience there.
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LOL
You can't resist it can you.

You've never been around any priests, but Priests have been found to have committed serious molestation crimes , your cut&past article is about men of God-priests, proven guilty of child molestation ,but as a christian - you choose cite unproven allegation of questionable veracity against atheists.:D
 
Quote from Doubter:

This God stuff is often used to help avoid personal responsibility. So the criminal priests can be diluted into all of humanity by God apologists, and blame is then conveniently apportioned to everyone. One particular group or person commits moral outrage... suddenly everyone is a sinner, we are all sinners, all guilty!
stu
_______________________________________________

This can go both ways. I thought my point was that it was a case of personal responsibility "committed by humans" and it should be dealt with on a case by case basis. I certainly did not mean to apportion it to everyone. My point meant that if you try to punish the whole church you probably won't be very successful but if you focus on guilty individuals your success rate should go up. Our purpose should be to as best we can stop the molestation and the most effective method should be employed. That is what I thought I said in my comment on the parent organization fostering or promoting the practice. If they are promoting the practice then go after them but if it is negligence your time would be better spent in going after the perpetrators.
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From what you say here, there was no need for you to paste in dubious reports apportioning unproven allegation against other people, as you would "focus on guilty individuals... stop the molestation" and "the most effective method should be employed." as you put it. ..

Then why post all that irrelevant stuff which diverted attention from the point you make NOW. ?? I think it is clear. As a dedicated christian you want to thin out the blame away from the church as much as you can.

It was christion priests of the catholic church who were responsible and guilty of this terrible crime on such a large scale.

"Our purpose should be to as best we can stop the molestation and the most effective method should be employed. " ??...

Then look deeper into a system in which men of God thrived as paedophiles. It is the same system which encourages people to adopt obsequious helplessness under their God, promoting a pernicious undertone toward diminished responsibility.

The explanation used by the church is, all people are sinful, the church/religion knows what is good.
The antidote applied by humanity is, accountability, personal responsibility. The idea that good itself can be attained above all things.
 
From what you say here, there was no need for you to paste in dubious reports apportioning unproven allegation against other people, as you would "focus on guilty individuals... stop the molestation" and "the most effective method should be employed." as you put it. ..
stu
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The reason for this posting is to point out that if there are other areas that this molestation could be occurring lets not put our heads in the sand but look into the situation and without going on witchhunts find out the truth and deal with the individuals before an epidemic has occurred. I'll bet the Catholic Church wishes it had recognized and dealt with the molesting priest problem long ago. My reason to look toward schools is very simple, kids and adults in close proximity on a daily basis. The school boards I served on were very keen on spotting any of these problems early on and fortunately we never had one. The problem for the board is how their hands are tied in hiring and firing by regulation and litigation and yet be responsible for the actions of their employees.

An example of this dilemma is in the hiring regulations in regard to asking the applicant about aids which is strictly forbidden. However, if you hire someone and they don't volunteer the information and they work in close proximity to kids or anyone in the public and someone contracts aids from that employee then the organization is at fault. We are told that normal contact will not spread the disease but you are putting the entire organization on the line on the strength of that opinion.

The policies for dealing with molestation that I have been involved with first off require the separation from the accuser, of the accused molester, second, try to get the truth of the charges beyond "he said, she said", and then if the charges are true a suggestion of counseling and the termination of the molesters connection with the organization. Counseling cannot be required for an employee that is being terminated. Fortunately we have never had an instance of molestation but have dealt with accusations of alienation of affection which fall under the same guidelines and proceedures. Being involved in the decision process is not a good way to win friends. Usually if everyone involved is mad at you perhaps you haven't done too badly.:) :)

My own experience says the quicker you deal with these cases it is so much better and it probably heads off some future problems. Leadership needs to get the reputation of fairness but swift and decisive action if problems occur.
 
Your line just doesn't add up.

"this molestation could be occurring lets not put our heads in the sand but look into the situation and without going on witchhunts "

Read back a little. Look at where you dropped in your Charol Shakeshaft, Hofstra University scholar's report.

Out of context and without any qualification from you whatsoever - other than your witticism.. "Our wonderful secular education system at work"

You dump shit piles of heavily loaded, unproven, untested allegationout of the blue from this Hofstra scholar. God knows how they learn to achieve reasonable conclusion, when people like her rely upon extrapolated data and rough estimates (stated so in your c&p post), to reach a decision.

And YOU served on school boards ! ..WHAT!!

Did you used to say... "Well fellow Witch Finder Generals, today we will see that due to extrapolated data and rough estimates which have been estimated roughly and extrapolated and are therefore valid, 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee in only 20% of the time it took our christian priest colleagues to do it. So lets use this to deflect the attention off the criminal priests, and lets burn the witch teachers now"

Shit me Doubter, no wonder things get so fucked up with policies like yours....

"The policies for dealing with molestation that I have been involved with first off require the separation from the accuser, of the accused molester, second, try to get the truth of the charges beyond "he said, she said", and then if the charges are true a suggestion of counseling and the termination of the molesters connection with the organization.

So I don't suppose your "policies" would require calling in the police !!!!!!!

What do you do, shift them over to another school or organization... like the church for instance. !!!


Counseling cannot be required for an employee that is being terminated.

Oh dear. That’s a bummer. Not to worry.

Really!!! just reading that explanation from you sounds to me like the thinking of a pious, self righteous, self important, jumped up, power hungry, authoritarian.

Being involved in the decision process is not a good way to win friends. Usually if everyone involved is mad at you perhaps you haven't done too badly

And worse, you probably think you have some grace from God helping you lose friends and not influence people.

"My own experience says the quicker you deal with these cases it is so much better and it probably heads off some future problems. Leadership needs to get the reputation of fairness but swift and decisive action if problems occur"

Yep, I bet, and jumping to conclusions like your friend Charol Shakeshaft's report does will make things all the more quicker and decisive for you and bugger any consequences... 'cause you got God on your side!

The mindset of self-satisfied pre suppositionalist religionist !?
 
stu - I must apologize for offending you so severely. I certainly didn't intend to trigger this level of hatred for me so I will aplologize and bow out.

Best of luck to you in your endeavors.
 
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