I've known a few people who have filed for bankruptcy and they were all people with money who used it to protect their assets, not poor people. One of them had won the lottery, used the $ to leverage more purchases than he could afford, then filed for bankruptcy to keep his new boat, cars etc... Until the personal bankruptcy laws were changed a couple of years ago, it was pretty easy to wipe out debt that way.
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Socialised health care in Canada poll
- Thread starter moneymonger
- Start date
Quote from mccd:
"Mav88
02-18-09 05:06 PM
It was metioned earlier that preemies are simply left to die in Europe and Canada."
wtf are you talking about?
Canada and Europe don't let pre-mature babies just die. where did you hear that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably Michael Savage show or some other blowhard outlet. It is a classical brainwashing scheme to tell people how bad things are elsewhere. When you are firmly convinced that no matter how bad things are here they are better than everywhere else you are pacified. Most of the people who listen to those shows honestly believe that US enjoys the highest standard of living in the World (which is not true at all)
Listening to the conservatives everyone in (Western)Europe is half dead, lives to 50, walks crooked, a flu is a death sentence, has bad teeth, poor vision and other scare stories. Any bad US healthcare statistic is either conveniently explained by minorities (As if France or England are monolithic) or by more "humane" US healthcare system. I would still like to hear why US has an astronomical autism rate compared to other industrialized countries.
We cannot have free health care because the system would immediately be swamped by hood baby mammas and mexicans.
Egalitarian principles are too lofty for these people so they need to be reminded of something from a practical perspective. A general unrest among the masses can lead to revolutions and uprisings which is clearly bad for the life/property of the rich. "let them eat cake" and "f*ck the poor" are not very good policies.
Furthermore, if you have someone who has to file for bankruptcy and lose his/her house because his/her insurance became unreasonably expensive after a cancer or a stroke that person's purchasing power/economic strength is destroyed which is also bad for business...
Screw the people who produce is shown to be not good policy either. Our health care already is overloaded by human garbage, too late on that one. I can back up my views with direct observation of medicaid and county disablity programs.
Where did I get the notion that underweight preemies are not treated the same? It was mentioned earlier, but any search will yield the facts. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/08/infant-mortality-measurements-not.html
Crack Preemie care in the US is better than Canada because we are the only ones who considers them to be human. Any birth under 500 grams in Canada is not considered to be salvageable. Even with the unfair accounting comparisons Canada wonders why they rank so high in infant mortality (as if this stat is the end all of stats). This was also mentioned earlier in the thread as well.
From a paper written by a Canadian on law: http://www.uottawa.ca/constitutional-law/Witholding Treatment_files/chp 1 - text.doc.
Neonatal intensive care increases the number of grossly deformed survivors. Because this is so, pediatricians increasingly incline to the view that some seriously ill children should not be treated. All Canadian neonatal units practice selective treatment. With cases considered unsalvageable or without potential for development, active care is withheld. The child is allowed, in some cases actively assisted, to die.
I actually agree with it, so good for Canada. They let some peemies just die, and too bad for the big bad conservative meanie label, eh?
If you get cancer and it costs millions, by what twisted morality should you not feel any financial pain? This type of weak thinking has already bankrupted us.
"Mav88
02-18-09 05:06 PM
It was metioned earlier that preemies are simply left to die in Europe and Canada."
wtf are you talking about?
Canada and Europe don't let pre-mature babies just die. where did you hear that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably Michael Savage show or some other blowhard outlet. It is a classical brainwashing scheme to tell people how bad things are elsewhere. When you are firmly convinced that no matter how bad things are here they are better than everywhere else you are pacified. Most of the people who listen to those shows honestly believe that US enjoys the highest standard of living in the World (which is not true at all)
Listening to the conservatives everyone in (Western)Europe is half dead, lives to 50, walks crooked, a flu is a death sentence, has bad teeth, poor vision and other scare stories. Any bad US healthcare statistic is either conveniently explained by minorities (As if France or England are monolithic) or by more "humane" US healthcare system. I would still like to hear why US has an astronomical autism rate compared to other industrialized countries.
We cannot have free health care because the system would immediately be swamped by hood baby mammas and mexicans.
Egalitarian principles are too lofty for these people so they need to be reminded of something from a practical perspective. A general unrest among the masses can lead to revolutions and uprisings which is clearly bad for the life/property of the rich. "let them eat cake" and "f*ck the poor" are not very good policies.
Furthermore, if you have someone who has to file for bankruptcy and lose his/her house because his/her insurance became unreasonably expensive after a cancer or a stroke that person's purchasing power/economic strength is destroyed which is also bad for business...
Screw the people who produce is shown to be not good policy either. Our health care already is overloaded by human garbage, too late on that one. I can back up my views with direct observation of medicaid and county disablity programs.
Where did I get the notion that underweight preemies are not treated the same? It was mentioned earlier, but any search will yield the facts. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/08/infant-mortality-measurements-not.html
Crack Preemie care in the US is better than Canada because we are the only ones who considers them to be human. Any birth under 500 grams in Canada is not considered to be salvageable. Even with the unfair accounting comparisons Canada wonders why they rank so high in infant mortality (as if this stat is the end all of stats). This was also mentioned earlier in the thread as well.
From a paper written by a Canadian on law: http://www.uottawa.ca/constitutional-law/Witholding Treatment_files/chp 1 - text.doc.
Neonatal intensive care increases the number of grossly deformed survivors. Because this is so, pediatricians increasingly incline to the view that some seriously ill children should not be treated. All Canadian neonatal units practice selective treatment. With cases considered unsalvageable or without potential for development, active care is withheld. The child is allowed, in some cases actively assisted, to die.
I actually agree with it, so good for Canada. They let some peemies just die, and too bad for the big bad conservative meanie label, eh?
If you get cancer and it costs millions, by what twisted morality should you not feel any financial pain? This type of weak thinking has already bankrupted us.
Most problems of the US Healthcare system have their roots in excessive cost. The cost obviously can not continue to escalate in excess of inflation in the general economy, becoming an ever larger fraction of the GDP. So even though nothing significant has been done yet to address the root cause, eventually something will have to be done, as there will be no other choice. May we all live long enough to see that day!
Canada simply rations it it by goverenment decree and not providing the option in the first place, problem solved. That way everyone suffers the same and the liberals feel good about themselves.
The root cause is that the US has a very sick population who have no problem laying claim to medical care way in excess of what they should get based on how much they produce. The government and has set it up that way, and it's the exact same mindset that killed housing. Either limit the available options, or let the free market do the rationing. In both cases some people will suffer but in the market case the greatest good will be acccomplished over time.
For emphasis, note that Canadian law explicitly allows for lack of treatment on some preemies, logical rationing even if by the government, but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone gets all the care they could want or even need under socialised health care
Canada simply rations it it by goverenment decree and not providing the option in the first place, problem solved. That way everyone suffers the same and the liberals feel good about themselves.
The root cause is that the US has a very sick population who have no problem laying claim to medical care way in excess of what they should get based on how much they produce. The government and has set it up that way, and it's the exact same mindset that killed housing. Either limit the available options, or let the free market do the rationing. In both cases some people will suffer but in the market case the greatest good will be acccomplished over time.
For emphasis, note that Canadian law explicitly allows for lack of treatment on some preemies, logical rationing even if by the government, but don't suffer from the illusion that everyone gets all the care they could want or even need under socialised health care
Quote from dcraig:
Very interesting (and shocking). I wonder how many mortgage defaults are due to this.
Not to mention the fact that I have read that 80% of Americans have medical debt on their credit file, which lowers their credit score and increases their mortgage payments.
All of the sheep also do not realize that most DRs commit malpractice on an almost daily basis, at least in my experience.
There are not nearly enough medical malpractice lawsuits. DRs need to be sued back into the human race for the next 50 years or so.
I think the whole 'horendiously[sic] long' wait time / poorer quality service myths about the Canadian system have been created to make US citizens fearful of nationalized / universal health care, thus protecting the profits of the health care system there.
I live in Canada and have had lower back issues ever since I hurt it throwing out a couch. Nothing major, just occasional pain. It was acting up a few years ago because I had to use an uncomfortable work chair for a few months. I decided to go see my doctor (booked an appointment, no wait time) to make sure there were no major issues coming my way down the road (an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, unfortunately most US citizens can't afford to do this in the 'superior' US healthcare system).
I didnt need any expedited care and there was no life threatening issues. But less than a week later I was getting a CT scan on my back (had an appointment booked for me, no wait time) just to make sure everything was fine. All this for free (money and stress). I personally love the Canadian health care system and would hate to live in a country which didn't look after all its citizens this way.
I was actually blown away by the speed of care. Before that experience I had mostly been exposed to american media. I so fully expected a non essential CT scan would take weeks or months to get.
There is a 'downside' to the Canadian system of course. If for whatever reasons the hosiptal's emergancy room is busy when I go there, a doctor will choose to treat a terminally ill homeless man (regardless of his inability to pay for health insurance or taxes) before they will see me about the penny i got stuck up my nose. Causing me to wait longer than I want to, even though I have far more money than the homeless man. I guess thats just the price I'll have to pay to have Canada's inferior system.
And before you think, why dont I just pay a private doctor to reduce my wait times. That completely ruins the idea of universal healthcare since the best doctors will go where they can make the most money (private hospitals), not where they are needed. Thus treating idiots with pennies up their nose for millions, rather than saving lives of people who cant pay.
I personally am willing to wait in a busy ER if that means someone else who needs help more than me gets it.
I live in Canada and have had lower back issues ever since I hurt it throwing out a couch. Nothing major, just occasional pain. It was acting up a few years ago because I had to use an uncomfortable work chair for a few months. I decided to go see my doctor (booked an appointment, no wait time) to make sure there were no major issues coming my way down the road (an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, unfortunately most US citizens can't afford to do this in the 'superior' US healthcare system).
I didnt need any expedited care and there was no life threatening issues. But less than a week later I was getting a CT scan on my back (had an appointment booked for me, no wait time) just to make sure everything was fine. All this for free (money and stress). I personally love the Canadian health care system and would hate to live in a country which didn't look after all its citizens this way.
I was actually blown away by the speed of care. Before that experience I had mostly been exposed to american media. I so fully expected a non essential CT scan would take weeks or months to get.
There is a 'downside' to the Canadian system of course. If for whatever reasons the hosiptal's emergancy room is busy when I go there, a doctor will choose to treat a terminally ill homeless man (regardless of his inability to pay for health insurance or taxes) before they will see me about the penny i got stuck up my nose. Causing me to wait longer than I want to, even though I have far more money than the homeless man. I guess thats just the price I'll have to pay to have Canada's inferior system.
And before you think, why dont I just pay a private doctor to reduce my wait times. That completely ruins the idea of universal healthcare since the best doctors will go where they can make the most money (private hospitals), not where they are needed. Thus treating idiots with pennies up their nose for millions, rather than saving lives of people who cant pay.
I personally am willing to wait in a busy ER if that means someone else who needs help more than me gets it.
Quote from moneymonger:
Just had a fierce debate with a friend of mine about USA healthcare. We are both US citizens. He claims that Canadians
lOVE their Socialised Medical system. I presume that is true
because Canadians continue to support the status quo. However,
I have heard reports through the media that Canadians who need expediated care for serious diseases and conditions are
SOL. The wait times for CT scans,MRI,s and Oconological care
are horendiously long. Oftentimes, these diseases progress
because of this latency of care. Is this true? Are Canadaians
on this board satisfied with their system?
I do realise the faults of the American system: excessive costs,
corrupt insurance companies, lack of quality medicinal marijuana in most parts of the country.
Although I have chosen the Canadian system, here is an article showing the problems people with serious medical problems can have.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123413701032661445.html
I also know my wife's knee gave out on her at work and she collapsed. Got into see the doctor right away, was told she needed to see a specialist and was given an appointment 6 mos away.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123413701032661445.html
I also know my wife's knee gave out on her at work and she collapsed. Got into see the doctor right away, was told she needed to see a specialist and was given an appointment 6 mos away.
Quote from spinn:
All of the sheep also do not realize that most DRs commit malpractice on an almost daily basis, at least in my experience.
There are not nearly enough medical malpractice lawsuits. DRs need to be sued back into the human race for the next 50 years or so.
So that malpractice insurance rates continue to rise, making medicine even more expensive ? Well, at least lawyers will be happy...
Not to mention the fact that I have read that 80% of Americans have medical debt on their credit file, which lowers their credit score and increases their mortgage payments.
All of the sheep also do not realize that most DRs commit malpractice on an almost daily basis, at least in my experience.
I would bet against both of those hyperbolic rants
There is a 'downside' to the Canadian system of course. If for whatever reasons the hosiptal's emergancy room is busy when I go there, a doctor will choose to treat a terminally ill homeless man (regardless of his inability to pay for health insurance or taxes) before they will see me about the penny i got stuck up my nose. Causing me to wait longer than I want to, even though I have far more money than the homeless man. I guess thats just the price I'll have to pay to have Canada's inferior system.
And before you think, why dont I just pay a private doctor to reduce my wait times. That completely ruins the idea of universal healthcare since the best doctors will go where they can make the most money (private hospitals), not where they are needed. Thus treating idiots with pennies up their nose for millions, rather than saving lives of people who cant pay.
I personally am willing to wait in a busy ER if that means someone else who needs help more than me gets it.
So you are willing to wait 6 hours, and pay 50% taxes, because some dude got shot ripping off a liquor store. Well, ok, good for you but please don't force that morality on me.
Quote from Marsupilami:
So that malpractice insurance rates continue to rise, making medicine even more expensive ? Well, at least lawyers will be happy...
I recently saw a DR because I have had a chronic sore throat for six months. They did an MRI on my thyroid and found a 2mm bump on it. The quack ordered a biopsy even though this should never be done for a bump of less than 25 mm, or ten times bigger.
So another DR stuck a six inch long needle into the center of my throat and then billed me $1500. I have insurance but the money is still spent for no medical reason.
Going back to my first DR, on the way out of his office he tried to talk me into taking Prilosec, which stops our production of stomach acid. The problem is, my body does not produce enough stomach acid to begin with. If I had taken this medicine that he is given a kickback to prescribe, I would not be able to digets any food.
This is typical my last, I dont know, 60 visits to DRs.
IS suing them a good answer, not really, but in that DRs have no soul, how else can you get them to stop prescribing meds based solely on the amount of money they are paid by the drug companies?