Socialised health care in Canada poll

The reason healthcare is such a mess is because most of you think it is something special, a 'right' instead of just another economic commodity. Most of you also would demand all the latest and greatest as your right, regardless of what it costs others. You would never bankrupt your children to prolong your life, but bankrupting your neighbors is moral.

You can't make an economic commodity a right, it's the same as saying you have a right to all the money you think is necessary for yourself, the ramifications are clear. Make it a right and soon you will have shortages and lower quality.

Food is more essential than healthcare, but the reason that you don't clamor about it is that thankfully the socialists were not around way back when food production was much lower. Producers were free to respond to a free market and so now food is pretty cheap and abundant for most. Food handouts are also then cheap and we can afford some food welfare without much burden- that is until the 'rights' crowd says it's unfair for some to get T-bone while others get hamburger.
 
Quote from Mav88:

The reason healthcare is such a mess is because most of you think it is something special, a 'right' instead of just another economic commodity. Most of you also would demand all the latest and greatest as your right, regardless of what it costs others. You would never bankrupt your children to prolong your life, but bankrupting your neighbors is moral.

You can't make an economic commodity a right, it's the same as saying you have a right to all the money you think is necessary for yourself, the ramifications are clear. Make it a right and soon you will have shortages and lower quality.

Food is more essential than healthcare, but the reason that you don't clamor about it is that thankfully the socialists were not around way back when food production was much lower. Producers were free to respond to a free market and so now food is pretty cheap and abundant for most. Food handouts are also then cheap and we can afford some food welfare without much burden- that is until the 'rights' crowd says it's unfair for some to get T-bone while others get hamburger.
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Maybe in an alternative universe agriculture existed in a "free" market but not in this one. It's probably one of the least free. And western trade policies re agriculture have exacerbated third world poverty.

You cling to a mythology of free markets that never existed in the real world.
 
Quote from Mav88:

The reason healthcare is such a mess is because most of you think it is something special, a 'right' instead of just another economic commodity. Most of you also would demand all the latest and greatest as your right, regardless of what it costs others. You would never bankrupt your children to prolong your life, but bankrupting your neighbors is moral.

You can't make an economic commodity a right, it's the same as saying you have a right to all the money you think is necessary for yourself, the ramifications are clear. Make it a right and soon you will have shortages and lower quality.

Food is more essential than healthcare, but the reason that you don't clamor about it is that thankfully the socialists were not around way back when food production was much lower. Producers were free to respond to a free market and so now food is pretty cheap and abundant for most. Food handouts are also then cheap and we can afford some food welfare without much burden- that is until the 'rights' crowd says it's unfair for some to get T-bone while others get hamburger.
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frankly, your reasoning is rather bizarre.
 
Quote from bigarrow:

Those are also my thoughts. The poor have free medical, military and ex military have free medical, government employees have free medical, my guess is that is well over 50% of the people right there, I'm sure someone here has some numbers on this. Add in the wealthy who are probably covered and employees of large corporations and we are not that far from a national health care system as it is. The ones who are screwed and the working lower middle class and the middle class who work for small business and the small business owners. All the others are covered. I can understand the logic on both sides in a lot of the right / left arguments but health care doesn't add up to me. The anti-health care crowd might as well be arguing against educating the poor because they are not paying their way.
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Virtually no one has "free medical care" someone always pays for it. Perhaps not the person receiving the care, but someone. The issue is not "free" medical care, which does not exist, but rather why does medical care in the US cost far more than equivalent or better care in other developed countries.

Coming up with another scheme to pay for US medical costs will solve nothing. Cost must be addressed if any significant progress is to be made toward solving US medical woes. And that means someone will make less money. And that means the chances for real progress on this issue are mighty slim.

The US government responds to big business and to crises.
When there is not enough money in the Federal Treasury to pay for US Senator's health care, or alternatively major US corporations are going out of business because they can no longer shift medical costs to government or their employees, then something will be done to address the cost.
 
Maybe in an alternative universe agriculture existed in a "free" market but not in this one. It's probably one of the least free. And western trade policies re agriculture have exacerbated third world poverty.

You cling to a mythology of free markets that never existed in the real world.

I said back when food was more scarce, but yet even today agiculture is a much freer market than medicine, and food is cheap and abundant. The US has socialized medicine for much of the population and that distorts prices.


I know liberals cannot fathom the economic argument (because to liberals economics is irrelevent) but at its core it's undeniable. Take any economic commodity and make it a 'right' to citizens. The end result is predictable: forced rationing (waiting), production innovation choked off, lower quality, and people just end up pissed off about it. If the government makes something 'free' then demand soars and producers make less.

For the food example just take the old Soviet Union. A nation of huge land area and natural resources that could not feed itself.

If the government decided everyone should have a car, guess what- we'll all be driving ford pintos in a generation.

I've seen fat worthless people on medicaid in the US that are costing millions, but they could not care less about it since they have been convinced it is their right. Medicaid goes bankrupt every year, rationing occurs all the time but not as bad as if we were all on the dole. It's coming though.
 
One thing that people should know about the two systems- in Canada the govt medical plan does not cover prescriptions, dental or eye exams/ glasses. If you have a condition that requires alot of medication- ouch. USA- I mentioned my friend who died of a heart failure while trying to put together funding for his operation, another friend of mine went in to have his shoulder examined for numbness and was on the oprerating table the next day having stents put in his heart. He didn't have insurance and left with a $50,000 bill. He said he told the hospital he would send them $10 a week and they said as long as they got something regularly that would be fine.
 
Quote from chrismontez:

One thing that people should know about the two systems- in Canada the govt medical plan does not cover prescriptions, dental or eye exams/ glasses. If you have a condition that requires alot of medication- ouch. USA- I mentioned my friend who died of a heart failure while trying to put together funding for his operation, another friend of mine went in to have his shoulder examined for numbness and was on the oprerating table the next day having stents put in his heart. He didn't have insurance and left with a $50,000 bill. He said he told the hospital he would send them $10 a week and they said as long as they got something regularly that would be fine.
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$10/week is peanuts. Beats paying a few hundred/month for insurance.
 
Very good post.

Emergency health care is readily available to the poor throughout the U.S.

I posted some stats here last year but Cook County Hospital in Chicago and USC-L.A. County each service nearly a million patients a year-for free.

Just like a criminal defendants right to an attorney doesn't provide him a pro-bono F. Lee Baily and public transportation isn't a fleet of Bentleys, free medical assistance isn't going to give everyone "equal access". Forgetting of course that the "best" can only facilitate x number of patients anyways. Maybe some Leftest cock can suggest a medical lottery along with rationing etc..........

Quote from Mav88:

The reason healthcare is such a mess is because most of you think it is something special, a 'right' instead of just another economic commodity. Most of you also would demand all the latest and greatest as your right, regardless of what it costs others. You would never bankrupt your children to prolong your life, but bankrupting your neighbors is moral.

You can't make an economic commodity a right, it's the same as saying you have a right to all the money you think is necessary for yourself, the ramifications are clear. Make it a right and soon you will have shortages and lower quality.

Food is more essential than healthcare, but the reason that you don't clamor about it is that thankfully the socialists were not around way back when food production was much lower. Producers were free to respond to a free market and so now food is pretty cheap and abundant for most. Food handouts are also then cheap and we can afford some food welfare without much burden- that is until the 'rights' crowd says it's unfair for some to get T-bone while others get hamburger.
More...
 
Something Canadians don't understand about the States; for certain parts of our population we have socialized healthcare and its actually better than Canadas because we keep insisting it's a right.

It was metioned earlier that preemies are simply left to die in Europe and Canada. Here in the states, crack whores come in to delivery a preemie that will be disabled and retarded because their mother is on drugs. The delivery of course is free to the mother, but then by law she can direct the hospital to keep her baby alive. Absolutely true and happens multiple times, I used to be married to a county MRDD adminstrator. Not only that, the crack whore simply leaves to go out and get pregnant again while the government is left with a human that will cost millions. it will get drastic life supporting measures and then will be on public assistance its entire life.

Every year county budgets go bankrupt, every year they simply start turning away people when the money runs out. This is what happens when you make health care a right, you are forgetting that half of us are selfish, self destructive, morons who could give a rats ass about what they cost the rest of society. Government rationing occurs in every socialized system, it's an unavoidable side effect. Rationing also occurs under insurance, but I prefer market rationing beause it has been shown over and over again to provide the best long run benefit to the greatest number of people. By far market rationing is the most moral system. Leftists however have this strange morality that says if some poor bloke is suffering then something is wrong with the economic rules, however if everyone is suffering that's fine because it is equal.

Even if we are all responsible it still would be a problem, healthcare is so broadly defined that the cost would be almost guaranteed to be out of control. I for one would like wellcare (to save money by avoiding future problem) such as twice a week massages, gym membership, supplements, mileage cost to the gym, whole organic foods, chiropractic care, because after all my health and life is special and it would be immoral for you all to not pay for it.
 
"Emergency health care is readily available to the poor throughout the U.S."

He wasn't poor- like many in Alaska he works seasonally and didn't have insurance coverage during the off season- and he is white- so he didn't qualify for medicaid like the poor and minorities do.

My point was even though you don't have insurance, for a life threatening situation you can have the operation done and just carry the debt until you die without having to sell everything to pay the bill.
 
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