Since 2014 The US Has Added 571,000 Waiters And Bartenders And Lost 34,000 Manufacturing Workers

[Sig]

What does engineering have to do with Manufacturing and Waiting? Engineering requires at least 4 years of rigorous schooling and often more in the form of a masters. Manufacturing requires a highschool diploma on the low end and trade school on the high end. Waiting is closer to manufacturing than manufacturing is to engineering and his point is that for that segment of the population Waiting is growning (which is considered a poor quality job) and manufacturing is not (which is considered a higher quality job).

Bringing the concept of high end engineers is a straw man argument to banjo's point. Why not mention anesthesiologists or Wall Street exotic derivatives traders (some of whom make 1000x more than a typical waiter)?

Further, given your background in the military (where you probably saw people from all walks of life) and then your background at an elite MBA program, I would figure you would appreciate the opportunities that some people are born into and few other people are capable of obtaining. The new aristocracy is education.

I don't like Zerohedge so I didn't read the article. I think the statistic highlights how hard it will be to bring manufacturing jobs back to this country (for some of the reasons you pointed out and some of the reasons I pointed out) but if it's doable, that would be more desirable than having a bunch of waiters working 15 hours a week to satisfy the needs of the 100 Apple engineers who designed the iphone.

I think your point that we compare like to like in education levels is a valid one (I also hold a similar opinion on Zerohedge, you didn't miss much on the actual article). I'd maintain that there is a vast landscape of tech jobs out there that don't require a 4 year degree, from sysadmins and support techs to hardware installation and maintenance. Military is a case in point, there are a large number of military operational specialties (MOSs for you military types) in the enlisted ranks that are entirely tech focused, the vast majority of which are filled by people straight out of high school, although many get degrees through night programs as their careers progress. This is where the majority of the new jobs over the last 20 years have been created and will be created going forward. I'd maintain that to decide that we have to contrast the loss of manufacturing jobs only with the growth of wait staff jobs is a strawman. I'd also maintain that it doesn't take privilege to get education. I came from solidly lower middle class and did fine, but I think the real example are all the enlisted men and women who served under me and got technical bachelor's degrees working at night and on weekends, while also working long weeks in demanding jobs that required them to up and move across the country every 2-4 years and to go on multi-month deployments every year. If large numbers of people in that situation can do it I'd maintain that it's widely achievable for those with much more stable lives and easier access to educational opportunity.

Finally I'd also argue, having worked a summer job on an assembly line, that calling a manufacturing job "higher quality" is a bit of a stretch or at least highly relative. I admittedly haven't worked as a bar tender, but besides picking fruit (my previous year's summer job) factory work is right up there on the crappy jobs list.

 

[CyJackX]

What are the hive mind's thoughts on:
Growing automation, especially regarding motor vehicles.
Universal Basic Income?

 

[motif]

What does engineering have to do with Manufacturing and Waiting? Engineering requires at least 4 years of rigorous schooling and often more in the form of a masters. Manufacturing requires a highschool diploma on the low end and trade school on the high end. Waiting is closer to manufacturing than manufacturing is to engineering and his point is that for that segment of the population Waiting is growning (which is considered a poor quality job) and manufacturing is not (which is considered a higher quality job).

Bringing the concept of high end engineers is a straw man argument to banjo's point. Why not mention anesthesiologists or Wall Street exotic derivatives traders (some of whom make 1000x more than a typical waiter)?

Further, given your background in the military (where you probably saw people from all walks of life) and then your background at an elite MBA program, I would figure you would appreciate the opportunities that some people are born into and few other people are capable of obtaining. The new aristocracy is education.

I don't like Zerohedge so I didn't read the article. I think the statistic highlights how hard it will be to bring manufacturing jobs back to this country (for some of the reasons you pointed out and some of the reasons I pointed out) but if it's doable, that would be more desirable than having a bunch of waiters working 15 hours a week to satisfy the needs of the 100 Apple engineers who designed the iphone.

I love Zero Hedge

 

[Gambit]

I'd also maintain that it doesn't take privilege to get education. I came from solidly lower middle class and did fine, but I think the real example are all the enlisted men and women who served under me and got technical bachelor's degrees working at night and on weekends, while also working long weeks in demanding jobs that required them to up and move across the country every 2-4 years and to go on multi-month deployments every year. If large numbers of people in that situation can do it I'd maintain that it's widely achievable for those with much more stable lives and easier access to educational opportunity.

I appreciate the fact that you and your colleagues served during wartime. The accomplishments of the enlisted men and women you mention are also admirable. I think the point that some of the posters are making is that those opportunities you mention are dwindling. The military is in drawdown as I'm sure you know already. The cost of education is rising. Automation is continuing to replace more jobs. Perhaps it would be better for the nation as a whole to find solutions to the structural problems in our economy that perpetuate unemployment.

Low cost high quality tech boot camps with integrated job placement, free education such as ASU's MBA, as well as a strong push to get young people into the trades are possible solutions. A universal basic income may become a necessity as automation increases pace. The last thing this country needs is a large mass of poor, angry, unemployed people with easy access to firearms.

 

[CyJackX]

More than may, I think a Universal Basic Income will become completely necessary once we hit peak automation. I haven't conceptualized a free market concept that would work. Then again, I am biased towards Socialism but always like to give the market a conceptual swing at a solution.

 

[Gambit]

More than may, I think a Universal Basic Income will become completely necessary once we hit peak automation. I haven't conceptualized a free market concept that would work. Then again, I am biased towards Socialism but always like to give the market a conceptual swing at a solution.

A good percentage of this country already receives free housing, free healthcare and a monthly subsidy. I think this should be extended to the "working poor" or lower middle class. America is bifurcating into two separate countries, the highly skilled upwardly mobile elite and the downwardly mobile working poor.

 

[luisHK]

The fact is 90% of the value from an iPhone or an imbedded control system or any other machine accrues to the designer

Don't disagree with the post as a whole but 90% of the value accruing to the designer ? uh ?? can you back that up ?

 

[motif]

I appreciate the fact that you and your colleagues served during wartime. The accomplishments of the enlisted men and women you mention are also admirable. I think the point that some of the posters are making is that those opportunities you mention are dwindling. The military is in drawdown as I'm sure you know already. The cost of education is rising. Automation is continuing to replace more jobs. Perhaps it would be better for the nation as a whole to find solutions to the structural problems in our economy that perpetuate unemployment.

Low cost high quality tech boot camps with integrated job placement, free education such as ASU's MBA, as well as a strong push to get young people into the trades are possible solutions. A universal basic income may become a necessity as automation increases pace. The last thing this country needs is a large mass of poor, angry, unemployed people with easy access to firearms.

Socialist dogma....zzzzzz

 

[Sig]

Don't disagree with the post as a whole but 90% of the value accruing to the designer ? uh ?? can you back that up ?

Should have said something like "vast majority", as I pulled the number from my behind. But you really can't argue with the profit Foxconn gets from manufacturing Apple products versus what Apple gets, for example. Foxconn makes much of Apple's products, however Apple accounts for only 40% of their total revenue. Apple's market cap is 5 times greater than Foxconns. Do the math and it works out to Foxconn at about 8% and Apple at about 92% in that relationship, which is not too far off from my WAG. Obviously you'll be able to find a countervailing example somewhere, but it's pretty beyond dispute that the vast majority of the profit goes to the designer/marketer rather than the manufacturer.

 

[Sig]

I appreciate the fact that you and your colleagues served during wartime. The accomplishments of the enlisted men and women you mention are also admirable. I think the point that some of the posters are making is that those opportunities you mention are dwindling. The military is in drawdown as I'm sure you know already. The cost of education is rising. Automation is continuing to replace more jobs. Perhaps it would be better for the nation as a whole to find solutions to the structural problems in our economy that perpetuate unemployment.

Low cost high quality tech boot camps with integrated job placement, free education such as ASU's MBA, as well as a strong push to get young people into the trades are possible solutions. A universal basic income may become a necessity as automation increases pace. The last thing this country needs is a large mass of poor, angry, unemployed people with easy access to firearms.

Can't argue with much of that. However my point wasn't that enlistment is an opportunity, it's actually a pretty crappy life with low pay and long hours. My point was that if a group of people who work long hours with crappy pay and frequent deployments and moves can get a technical degree, than anyone who's willing to expend the effort to do so could as well. As you pointed out, much of the population just opts not too and we can't have them rioting in the street, even if I do have zero sympathy for their "all the good manufacturing jobs have been taken away, woe is me" trope.