*Simulated* Trader P/L 2007
- Thread starter NoEmotions
- Start date
Thanks for the comments austinp, it is the interaction between traders who share their knowledge that allows other traders to reflect on and observe it [the knowledge and information shared] in relationship to their own experience that allows all of us to grow into profitable traders. It's much more difficult to do so if you are operating in a vacuum.
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While paper trading a method to get the basics down is definitely a good idea, the brain will interacte with the information at a much higher level when there is actual money (even a little bit) on the line.
I personally have found it to be far more useful to actually trade with real money, in terms of developing my understanding of how I function as a trader and developing my trading abilities to their optimal level. While many strategies seemed to work well on paper, trading them with real money proved to be much more difficult.
You need to put something at risk to take it to the next level.
There actually was another thread which devlved pretty deeply into the subject of Paper Trading, its strengths and weaknesses. The reader should see how the information shared fits with their own experience and try to determine how it can best be used to develop your own personal trading.
Paper Trading Vs The Real Deal
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Be sure to keep a diary of the trades you took and why, as well as logging your trades into a spreadsheet to record them and analyzing your weekly/monthly performance if you want to get the most from this experience.
Good trading,
JJ
All fledgling traders, each of us at the starting point(s) in our career assume that trading is a linear process. Find a basic approach that tells when to buy and sell, or sell and buy. Act upon those signals with confidence, and watch the money roll in.
Did anyone ever enter this profession with expectations other than that?
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There are so many layers to successful trading, a bushel of onions peeled would not begin to compare. Learning about markets, learning about methods - systems and learning about ourselves are the Big Three pillars. All roads lead from there, and the roads are tentacles on the proverbial map to success.
Aspiring traders who try to learn any of the natural stages with real money, lose that money. What positive learning experience is that? None... it is highly detrimental.
Only after aspiring traders have learned about markets in general and their method - system in detail should they begin to work with real money at risk. That's the part about learning oneself. Gotta get the other aspects down cold without cold, hard cash muddling up the education.
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This profession of trading = gambling is diametrically opposed to basic human nature. We are wired to gather & protect that which is precious to us. Trading = gambling is the act of risking what we treasure for potential reward of gathering more. Definite push-pull on our internal wiring.
Placing real money at risk time after time is emotionally akin to dangling a loved one off the edge of a cliff with hope a baby will be born in the process. Can you imagine if the only way to create a family involved extreme risk to either parent? As it is, there is some level of risk involved with childbirth. How many would be excited to have children if the risk for success had a negative overall outcome?
Of course that is a poor analogy for my point, but you get the point intended. Mixing high emotions of money at risk in the wrong parts of a trader's learning curve never speeds up the process... it retards the process.
Equally true is the fact that all of us begin trading real money long before we should, and some of the survivors who realized that doesn't work are found right here in this thread.
Sadly, too many others exhaust their limited capital before ever coming to that simple conclusion.
Carry on...
Did anyone ever enter this profession with expectations other than that?
*
There are so many layers to successful trading, a bushel of onions peeled would not begin to compare. Learning about markets, learning about methods - systems and learning about ourselves are the Big Three pillars. All roads lead from there, and the roads are tentacles on the proverbial map to success.
Aspiring traders who try to learn any of the natural stages with real money, lose that money. What positive learning experience is that? None... it is highly detrimental.
Only after aspiring traders have learned about markets in general and their method - system in detail should they begin to work with real money at risk. That's the part about learning oneself. Gotta get the other aspects down cold without cold, hard cash muddling up the education.
**
This profession of trading = gambling is diametrically opposed to basic human nature. We are wired to gather & protect that which is precious to us. Trading = gambling is the act of risking what we treasure for potential reward of gathering more. Definite push-pull on our internal wiring.
Placing real money at risk time after time is emotionally akin to dangling a loved one off the edge of a cliff with hope a baby will be born in the process. Can you imagine if the only way to create a family involved extreme risk to either parent? As it is, there is some level of risk involved with childbirth. How many would be excited to have children if the risk for success had a negative overall outcome?
Of course that is a poor analogy for my point, but you get the point intended. Mixing high emotions of money at risk in the wrong parts of a trader's learning curve never speeds up the process... it retards the process.
Equally true is the fact that all of us begin trading real money long before we should, and some of the survivors who realized that doesn't work are found right here in this thread.
Sadly, too many others exhaust their limited capital before ever coming to that simple conclusion.
Carry on...
Interesting though extremely flawed analogy austinp (trading = having babies? 
).
No it doesn't.
Paper Trading is to Live Trading what Practice Scrimmage is to a Real Game of Football.
You can go over and practice your Xâs and Oâs all you want, ultimately youâre going to have to test your mettle against a live opponent (um, the market) to determine if your strategy is one which is going to consistently win games (make you money). If not, youâre going to have to figure-out whatâs wrong and make adjustments accordingly.
Yes traders, do continue with the SIM trading, just be ready to change your game plan if you find, once the market opens, it ain't work'in for you.
Good trading,
Jimmy Jam
).No it doesn't.
Paper Trading is to Live Trading what Practice Scrimmage is to a Real Game of Football.
You can go over and practice your Xâs and Oâs all you want, ultimately youâre going to have to test your mettle against a live opponent (um, the market) to determine if your strategy is one which is going to consistently win games (make you money). If not, youâre going to have to figure-out whatâs wrong and make adjustments accordingly.
Yes traders, do continue with the SIM trading, just be ready to change your game plan if you find, once the market opens, it ain't work'in for you.
Good trading,
Jimmy Jam
Quote from JimmyJam:
Interesting though extremely flawed analogy austinp (trading = having babies?
No it doesn't.
Paper Trading is to Live Trading what Practice Scrimmage is to a Real Game of Football.
You can go over and practice your Xâs and Oâs all you want, ultimately youâre going to have to test your mettle against a live opponent (um, the market) to determine if your strategy is one which is going to consistently win games (make you money). If not, youâre going to have to figure-out whatâs wrong and make adjustments accordingly.
Yes traders, do continue with the SIM trading, just be ready to change your game plan if you find, once the market opens, it ain't work'in for you.
Good trading,
Jimmy Jam
JJ
I appreciate your interest in this thread, but would like to suggest a more constructive way of posting here. We know this isn't real trading that's why we are doing it in a thread called Simulated P/L. We are just trying to get to the point where I presume you are. If you would like to help us with your knowledge/ wisdom, why don't you describe what you did to get from where we are to where you are. Let us now how long it took you paper trading/studying before real money? How much capital did you have to start with? How long after starting in real money did it take you to become profitable and what was the draw down? Your story and some of the other experiences of ETers could help us figure out what is most advisable to do. Hopefully one day we won't all be paper trading, but this place gives us time to figure out if it is for us before losing thousands of dollars. I am not sure yet if this is for me. I am giving it all my attention and commitment, but if I fail to get consistant with a sim. account, I am prepared never to go to the next stage. Right now I still feel like I can do this. I'll keep trying to learn.
JIM
Dear JJ,
My (self admittedly) poor analogy was meant to say that traders risk something precious (money) for something equally precious (more money) in the process.
I like your analogy much better... so let's go with that!
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You, me, saxon and eight others here form a new football team. I'm the player/captain. We gather at the practice facility, first day of training. I hand out the playbooks to everyone, and send y'all home to read them.
Next day we gather at the training complex, and watch some film of NFL teams in action.
Third day we gather for training, and I say the following: "Listen guys, we've all read the books and watched enough videos. It doesn't look that complicated to me... does it to you? Hey, all we gotta do is block & tackle. How hard is that?"
"I realize we haven't drilled on basic techniques (method or system parameters) much, and our protective pads & gear (emotional strength / discipline) aren't fitted yet, but what the heck. Let's scrimmage against the Bears, full contact drills. Ya with me? After all, the Colts made it look pretty easy on film, now didn't they?"
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We gather on the field, facing the bears defensive unit. "JJ, I want you to block Urlacher. Saxon, you hit Lance Briggs hard in the hole. Got that? I'll take a shovel pass straight up the middle and split those blitzing safeties. I know we don't have pads on, but we've seen enough film to know how it's done. Now let's go out and run that ball right down their throats!!!"
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Sadly most traders try the same general approach before schooling themselves in the demo world of drilling fundamentals (entries, exits and stops) along with protective pads (mental/emotional balance). Any wonder why their real-money account balances look as battered as the three of us would when the whistle blows on our shovel pass play against the Bears?
There is certainly a time & place for live scrimmages (real money) without question. Just don't be in a rush to hit the NFL playing field too soon.
My (self admittedly) poor analogy was meant to say that traders risk something precious (money) for something equally precious (more money) in the process.
I like your analogy much better... so let's go with that!
*
You, me, saxon and eight others here form a new football team. I'm the player/captain. We gather at the practice facility, first day of training. I hand out the playbooks to everyone, and send y'all home to read them.
Next day we gather at the training complex, and watch some film of NFL teams in action.
Third day we gather for training, and I say the following: "Listen guys, we've all read the books and watched enough videos. It doesn't look that complicated to me... does it to you? Hey, all we gotta do is block & tackle. How hard is that?"
"I realize we haven't drilled on basic techniques (method or system parameters) much, and our protective pads & gear (emotional strength / discipline) aren't fitted yet, but what the heck. Let's scrimmage against the Bears, full contact drills. Ya with me? After all, the Colts made it look pretty easy on film, now didn't they?"
**
We gather on the field, facing the bears defensive unit. "JJ, I want you to block Urlacher. Saxon, you hit Lance Briggs hard in the hole. Got that? I'll take a shovel pass straight up the middle and split those blitzing safeties. I know we don't have pads on, but we've seen enough film to know how it's done. Now let's go out and run that ball right down their throats!!!"
***
Sadly most traders try the same general approach before schooling themselves in the demo world of drilling fundamentals (entries, exits and stops) along with protective pads (mental/emotional balance). Any wonder why their real-money account balances look as battered as the three of us would when the whistle blows on our shovel pass play against the Bears?
There is certainly a time & place for live scrimmages (real money) without question. Just don't be in a rush to hit the NFL playing field too soon.
OK JIM
3 years of my life, day-in and day-out in front a screen, $10,000 (that's not counting the cost of a computer, or its maintenance, books, classes or any courses that I took) and working my tail-off at a night/weekend job.
The thing is I didn't learn the most when I was on SIM, I learned it when I had the cash on the line, but hey, I live in a world where many people can take a different approach and all of them can be right for themself and their situation in life.
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There's some good information on the link to Paper Trading vs. Real Trading, give it a read through in your free time and see what you think.
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As mentioned before, be sure to track your equity curve and keep your written diary/notes/ comments, etc. As far as not making it in this industry, I just took the stance that I wasn't going to give up, period, so I didn't. It was an emotional commitment/decision, not an intellectual one.
As austinp mentions, doing the work in combination with intellectual knowledge will keep you in good stead when you're dealing with the emtions of pulling the trigger, give you the tools to manage your self-talk and keep it positive to manage your FEAR, help you maintain your focus when you deal with the turbulent emtions of a losing day, and keep you grounded when the light of GREED lights-up like a flame behind your eyes as you start to win-win-win.
I never disagreed whicha austinp, I just know that the SIM ain't noth'in like the real thang baby!
Good trading all,
James
P.S. I still use SIM to test out new speculative systems which I don't have the full parameters for, or to punish myself when I've gone against my trading rules (discipline is the key to SUCCESS).
I have lost quite a bit of money already trading live. Not because I was afraid but I did not have a good strategy. I was wise enough to realize this early and not to lose my entire balance. This time I want to do it the right way. I am not at all ashamed to declare that I paper trade. Unless I am consistent on paper I will NOT move ahead no matter how much time it takes.
I try to trade as real as possible with profit targets and stop losses.
Psychology is involved everywhere and trading is not different.
e.g.
1) If you get into a car accident 3 times in one month , you will be scared to death next time to even turn on the engine even if you are a good driver. Will that stop you from driving for your life?
2) When you first took the wheels in your hands, did you straight jumped on the highway or started outside your house/empty parking lot/small lanes ?
3) if you wanna become a pilot, will you tell your instructor that you do not believe in simulator pilot training program as it is fake and does not have real height feeling, you want to fly the plane alone on day 1 just to see weather you are afraid of heights.
4) if you goal is to learn swimming and one day swim in deep sea
what will be your approach.
will you learn in swallow water/swimming pool and slowly progress or day 1 will you jump in the deep sea just to find out whether you can take on the pressure of swimming in the deep sea along the big fish.
People always make trading look different than other things. I feel the same rules of life are applicable here.
if somebody sees you watching some charts, the only thing they will ask ... did you make money / how much money did you make ?... the whole mechanics/methedolgy/approach goes down the drain, no body cares. People look at trading as a quick money maker.
After going through 1st grade to under graduate/graduate studies finally you are ready for a white collar job or similar and make money. In effect to get their you have spent almost 25 years. Society accepts that as a learning curve, but if you want to spent 1 year just learning the market, its termed waste of time unless you put real dollars.
In the end its whatever works for you, thatâs the simple answer.
if you are born with the golden spoon, real trade the emini gold from your first birthday
I try to trade as real as possible with profit targets and stop losses.
Psychology is involved everywhere and trading is not different.
e.g.
1) If you get into a car accident 3 times in one month , you will be scared to death next time to even turn on the engine even if you are a good driver. Will that stop you from driving for your life?
2) When you first took the wheels in your hands, did you straight jumped on the highway or started outside your house/empty parking lot/small lanes ?
3) if you wanna become a pilot, will you tell your instructor that you do not believe in simulator pilot training program as it is fake and does not have real height feeling, you want to fly the plane alone on day 1 just to see weather you are afraid of heights.
4) if you goal is to learn swimming and one day swim in deep sea
what will be your approach.
will you learn in swallow water/swimming pool and slowly progress or day 1 will you jump in the deep sea just to find out whether you can take on the pressure of swimming in the deep sea along the big fish.
People always make trading look different than other things. I feel the same rules of life are applicable here.
if somebody sees you watching some charts, the only thing they will ask ... did you make money / how much money did you make ?... the whole mechanics/methedolgy/approach goes down the drain, no body cares. People look at trading as a quick money maker.
After going through 1st grade to under graduate/graduate studies finally you are ready for a white collar job or similar and make money. In effect to get their you have spent almost 25 years. Society accepts that as a learning curve, but if you want to spent 1 year just learning the market, its termed waste of time unless you put real dollars.
In the end its whatever works for you, thatâs the simple answer.
if you are born with the golden spoon, real trade the emini gold from your first birthday