The former; don't delude yourself on this history revisionism people have been trying to push. As far as statues/monuments; completely inadequate if funded by government or installed in public spaces. You're asking black tax payers to celebrate a movement that saw to keep them as cattle, devoid of humanity or rights. The confederacy was a shameful part of American history that should be shunned whenever it comes up and anyone celebrating it called out as an idiot.
Should Confederate War Memorials/Statues Be Abolished?
- Thread starter vanzandt
- Start date
The former; don't delude yourself on this history revisionism people have been trying to push. As far as statues/monuments; completely inadequate if funded by government or installed in public spaces. You're asking black tax payers to celebrate a movement that saw to keep them as cattle, devoid of humanity or rights. The confederacy was a shameful part of American history that should be shunned whenever it comes up and anyone celebrating it called out as an idiot.
State's rights to allow slavery.
While most Southerner's didn't own slaves, many profited from the industry : either by managing slaves or related industries that were connected to slave labor.
It doesn't get any clearer than this imo
"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."Confederate States of America Vice President Alexander Stephens
"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."Confederate States of America Vice President Alexander Stephens
I really enjoyed living in Virginia and Florida when I did in the past.
The south has a very gracious way of living. For instance I liked seeing cops stop their cars and help churches and other religious institutions help with the traffic as church gets out. And no one complained because it was the right thing to do.
I truly understand when the South strongly believes in states rights.
Its similar to the way Colorado and California believe they have a right to nullify the FEDs on pot laws.
But, I am thinking here4money got it right for govt reasons and morality reasons. I just can not see the point of making black peoples tax dollars support that.
But, for me is the same argument for abortion. I just can not see making people who think its murder pay tax dollars support that.
So...if we are really being libertarian here... lets be consistent. I am willing to say its not right to make people see and support a statute of Robert E Lee for myraid reasons.
I think we need to do the same for a lot of other areas of govt. and the next time you see a hobby lobby case. support hobby lobby.
The south has a very gracious way of living. For instance I liked seeing cops stop their cars and help churches and other religious institutions help with the traffic as church gets out. And no one complained because it was the right thing to do.
I truly understand when the South strongly believes in states rights.
Its similar to the way Colorado and California believe they have a right to nullify the FEDs on pot laws.
But, I am thinking here4money got it right for govt reasons and morality reasons. I just can not see the point of making black peoples tax dollars support that.
But, for me is the same argument for abortion. I just can not see making people who think its murder pay tax dollars support that.
So...if we are really being libertarian here... lets be consistent. I am willing to say its not right to make people see and support a statute of Robert E Lee for myraid reasons.
I think we need to do the same for a lot of other areas of govt. and the next time you see a hobby lobby case. support hobby lobby.
Last edited:
Here's the north's position:
Abraham Lincoln Quote
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
by:
Abraham Lincoln
(1809-1865) 16th US President
Source:
Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)
--------------------------------------------------------
and there's more.....!
Abraham Lincoln 'wanted to deport slaves' to new colonies - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › North America › USA
The US Constitution recognized slavery. No one was objecting to slavery when the states were being urged to form the original country.
Clearly slavery was a huge mistake, much like our current immigration policies. The slave owners were externalizing their own labor costs on society as a whole, much like the employers of illegal immigrants are doing now. Only a handful of rich plantation owners really profited from slavery, but the South and its people had to fight a horrendous war and suffer unimaginable war crimes at the hands of the North. Lincoln couldn't have cared less about slavery, as his speeches made clear. It was just a useful tool to rally the ignorant masses behind the war to crush the South's resistance on economic issues.
150 years later, we're still refighting the same issues. Secession made sense then and it does now. Sometimes divorce is preferable to constant conflict. Actually secession would be easier now, as only a couple of slivers on either coast and the upper Midwest really need to be excised from the rest of the country.
The southern economies profited immensely from slavery like we do today (just the slavery is in other countries). And like we do today from illegal immigration.
Slavery was very much a wedge issue. The 3/5ths compromise and the idea that every new state added required another state on the opposite side of the issue was designed to create balance in the government.
I agree that illegal immigration needs to be addressed. I am not in favor of mass deportations and I certainly don't believe all illegals (or even most) are moochers or rapists. Like the pre-civil war, all the wealth and industrial capacity is on the progressive side of this issue. Secession would be a dumb idea.
And you are right, Lincoln was more about the realpolitik than about slavery.
But the reality is that those who cling to these monuments do it to cling to the heritage of black oppression.
You didn't know that the emancipation proclamation only freed the slaves in the south? lol
It left the slaves in the north under the ownership of their masters. That's lincoln's emancipation.
It was nothing but a gimmick to try to win the war which lincoln made perfectly clear, without any doubts whatsoever, was not about slavery. He thought blacks were inferior and had no place in America. And he was the north's leader.
Last edited: