short short etf + short long etf

I do not trade forex anymore with macroview.
But I like the subject a lot. Macroeconomics is fascinating to me.

And I have to admit I like freestockcharts as a quick tool for stocks and forex.

I do not like to sign in every time into IB, when I like to have a quick view on sth. IB charts are enough for me to chart spreads.

Cheers
 
Quote from Sundog:

Roll over costs, as long as one vehicle is suffering opposite than the other from contango or backwardation, you will see a under or outperformance, because they use different months in their calculation or they use more than one futures contract for their calculation.
Someone has to dig into the calculation, which futures months do they roll and when.
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keywords.. they use different contracts.. midterm to short term.. or even just a different short term roll.. i'm sure vixy rolls slightly different then vxx but this is my question.. you guys are talking about arbing products you don't know very much about... and your looking for other people to give you answers.. bottom line is.. say for example.. if vixy is rolling at a slight farther point out in the term structure then vxx.. then you are exposing your self to price risk.. for example if you go long the vixy and short the vxx you would make the difference in roll costs ... because vixy would lose just slightly less then the vxx.. but if it flipped from contango to backwards you would be getting hurt.. thats price risk.. its the same if you short a inverse product and short a long product.. if they are rolling at different points in the term structure your exposed to price risk.. bottom line.. seems like you guys are shooting in the dark..
 
Thanx for your honest opinion.

As you heard i am also a bit sceptic about the whole idea and yes I did not do the whole research, but again my mate, we are both airline pilots for a major carrier in europe is making more with that than he does with flying.

It is your right to disclaim and it is my right to have a hopefully pleasant discussion on this forum.

As you stated, there are some inherent risks to it. Well, I will do surely my reasearch near term, since I see some potential in it.

Cheers
 
Quote from cdcaveman:

I still don't get how going long one etf against short an inverse would make you any money...
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It wouldn't. That's not what he talking about. He's talking about going short on both sides - going short both the "long" version and the "short" version of the same ETF (preferably a leveraged one).
 
Quote from cdcaveman:

keywords.. they use different contracts.. midterm to short term.. or even just a different short term roll.. i'm sure vixy rolls slightly different then vxx but this is my question.. you guys are talking about arbing products you don't know very much about... and your looking for other people to give you answers.. bottom line is.. say for example.. if vixy is rolling at a slight farther point out in the term structure then vxx.. then you are exposing your self to price risk.. for example if you go long the vixy and short the vxx you would make the difference in roll costs ... because vixy would lose just slightly less then the vxx.. but if it flipped from contango to backwards you would be getting hurt.. thats price risk.. its the same if you short a inverse product and short a long product.. if they are rolling at different points in the term structure your exposed to price risk.. bottom line.. seems like you guys are shooting in the dark..
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Well, you know, you could go long one as long as it's in contango and then long the other when it goes into backwardation. EG, right now long XIV, then if it flips to backwardation long VXX, if we're talking about the VIX.
Same thing with nat gas and UNG and GASZ.
Just note re XIV: there's a non-zero chance it'll go to zero on any given day, so if you're long that one, I'd always keep at least one long VIX call around in the portfolio just in case.
 
Ouch, cost money aswell on top of borrowing costs of the shares, if you would do both short.
Then, I would keep a long put on the inverse.
What about hedge ratio ajustment leaning towards the inverse, when you are both short as a saftey cushion?
Just a thought.
 
Quote from Random.Capital:

It wouldn't. That's not what he talking about. He's talking about going short on both sides - going short both the "long" version and the "short" version of the same ETF (preferably a leveraged one).
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Short a short etf pays in con tango the exact extent that shorting a long etf.. if you short the vxx... (when the vix term structure is in con tango) you collect roll cost... if you short the short (uvxy) you pay the roll cost... its neutralizing... plus you pay borrowing costs of shorting shares...

Vxx = rolling causes a debit
Uvxy = rolling cost is a credit

Short, long. Long,long. Short,short. Doesn't matter the configuration... your either taking on price risk or your neutralized...

Show me an explicit example when..... and I'll show you how your taking price risk or how your neutralized
 
Quote from cdcaveman:

Short a short etf pays in con tango the exact extent that shorting a long etf.. if you short the vxx... (when the vix term structure is in con tango) you collect roll cost... if you short the short (uvxy) you pay the roll cost... its neutralizing... plus you pay borrowing costs of shorting shares...

Vxx = rolling causes a debit
Uvxy = rolling cost is a credit

Short, long. Long,long. Short,short. Doesn't matter the configuration... your either taking on price risk or your neutralized...

Show me an explicit example when..... and I'll show you how your taking price risk or how your neutralized
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you'd be surprised how much money you can make going both long and short. I doubt anybody can make money taking both sides of an ETF. But once you start doing it, they just keep paying you as long as you keep lying. It's sort of like being a double agent.

I tried going straight and you can take that crap and cram it back up your ass.

If I ever get out of this mess, I'm going back to spreading. You don't make a lot, but it's consistent.
 
Quote from oldtime:

you'd be surprised how much money you can make going both long and short. I doubt anybody can make money taking both sides of an ETF. But once you start doing it, they just keep paying you as long as you keep lying. It's sort of like being a double agent.

I tried going straight and you can take that crap and cram it back up your ass.

If I ever get out of this mess, I'm going back to spreading. You don't make a lot, but it's consistent.
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yeah.. but i just don't get where this circle of conversation about short short etf's and short long etf's has really gone.. if your short a short. your long.. if your short a long your short.. no different then being short the short and long the long... and as well no different from being short the long and short the short ... all of them equate to the same result.. neutral.. you have to expose yourself to price risk in some fashion to make term structure roll.. there is no magic to it.. the OP obviously needs to get more information out of whoever is telling him they are making money... cause in this respect you can't make any money... you can lose money in commssions and short borrowing costs though.. a perfect hedge has no risk and can make no money...
 
I do not want to be rude but oldtime is a poor trader and a failed trader. Why is anybody listening to him? I have him on my ignore list, but he keeps reappearing in quotes.

I read he was complaining about trading forex because it "brings back bad memories from his divorce". Seriously dude get a grip. Don't waste your time giving advice if you're a failure.
 
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