With all due respect to Harry ... The interface concept in Object Oriented programming has at least been around for 12 years. These discussions started in the industry as early as 1990. XML really started in earnest as an interface specification in about 1996. People were busy making money for about 5 years after that ... Now that the focus is on cutting costs to extract profits - rather than innovation - people are back to work at decoupling all the held-hostage interfaces the not-so-honest software vendors, employees and contractors constructed during the last 7 years or so .....
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Business Week Article shows no advantage to outsourcing IT
The Hidden Costs of IT Outsourcing
While moving software development and tech support offshore is all the rage, many companies find the overall savings aren't that great
Keith Franklin, president of Empowered Software Solutions in Burr Ridge, Ill., loves offshore outsourcing. It means more work for his 40-person company. Just last year, ESS, which specializes in developing applications for Microsoft's .Net platform for Web services, earned $500,000 in revenues from fixing buggy software written in India. It took ESS five months to repair a glitch-filled application for a Web portal. Most pages on the site weren't connected, turning updating into a nightmare. Some code was missing.
The shoddy work didn't come cheap, either: The Indian outsourcer went $1 million overbudget. Franklin says he could have done the project for less than $900,000 -- right here in the U.S. <more at url>
http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2003/tc20031027_9655_tc119.htm
The Hidden Costs of IT Outsourcing
While moving software development and tech support offshore is all the rage, many companies find the overall savings aren't that great
Keith Franklin, president of Empowered Software Solutions in Burr Ridge, Ill., loves offshore outsourcing. It means more work for his 40-person company. Just last year, ESS, which specializes in developing applications for Microsoft's .Net platform for Web services, earned $500,000 in revenues from fixing buggy software written in India. It took ESS five months to repair a glitch-filled application for a Web portal. Most pages on the site weren't connected, turning updating into a nightmare. Some code was missing.
The shoddy work didn't come cheap, either: The Indian outsourcer went $1 million overbudget. Franklin says he could have done the project for less than $900,000 -- right here in the U.S. <more at url>
http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2003/tc20031027_9655_tc119.htm
I'm a software geek, and although this article may bring
some hope to the techies, it's only temporary.
The offshore guys are just getting started.
Although they may not be up to par with good US programmers,
it's only a matter of time. Give them a few cycles ;-)
US software is toast.
The US economy, especially California, and some other high tech
areas around the country, will get hit Hard.
Just more bad news for the US.
peace
axeman
some hope to the techies, it's only temporary.
The offshore guys are just getting started.
Although they may not be up to par with good US programmers,
it's only a matter of time. Give them a few cycles ;-)
US software is toast.
The US economy, especially California, and some other high tech
areas around the country, will get hit Hard.
Just more bad news for the US.
peace
axeman
The key issue is that companies are looking at the price per hour only; few take into account the risks, language barriers, infrastructure costs, training costs, time zone issues, immediate support issues, and other items that add to the cost off shoring projects. The key to the article is not that the quality off-shore is bad (which is not always true), but the costs when you actually add everything up are near equal. Take a look at the following section of the article for example....
---------
"DIRTY LITTLE SECRET." On paper, it looks extremely attractive. A Russian programmer charges 80% less than an American. But when you parse it all out, the total cost of offshoring a given IT job is generally comparable to getting the work done domestically, says Tom Weakland, a partner at management consultancy DiamondCluster. It's just that few companies are aware of these real costs. "Most companies can't accurately measure their productivity and costs prior to and after outsourcing," says Weakland. "Most look just at wages."
--------
The other interesting thing to note that in India, for example, wages for IT people are rising rapidly. They now are having business conventions in India telling local Indian business executives how they can off-shore their programming jobs to China, Malaysia, Argentina, and other even cheaper countries....
- Greg
---------
"DIRTY LITTLE SECRET." On paper, it looks extremely attractive. A Russian programmer charges 80% less than an American. But when you parse it all out, the total cost of offshoring a given IT job is generally comparable to getting the work done domestically, says Tom Weakland, a partner at management consultancy DiamondCluster. It's just that few companies are aware of these real costs. "Most companies can't accurately measure their productivity and costs prior to and after outsourcing," says Weakland. "Most look just at wages."
--------
The other interesting thing to note that in India, for example, wages for IT people are rising rapidly. They now are having business conventions in India telling local Indian business executives how they can off-shore their programming jobs to China, Malaysia, Argentina, and other even cheaper countries....
- Greg
I've been in the software industry for 20 years, the last 11 being an independent software developer. The last 3 years have been tough for software developers, but I was more busy than ever plus I am way more expensive than what the unemployed developers would work for.
Why? Well, I know I'm damn good at what I do
, but seriously, there is a lot more to software development than having some geek in the corner cranking out code.
The key is offering value-added services to basic programming services, such as consulting. The clients I deal with look for me for answers. They want to see me face to face and pour out their woes. They want me to help them make their work flow more efficient. So I hold their hand, I design something for them, I develop it, I install it, I train them, I visit them, I send them Christmas cards, I tell them Happy Birthday. I become the same to their business as their accountant, or attorney. I have their business for years.
Now, how can somebody working in China, or India, even come CLOSE to service such as this? They can't and never will. They may have the technical skills, but that is far short of what a complete software developer should do. They are just coders.
Internet meetings were the rage for a while, but people are going back to traveling for face to face meetings. Similarly, sending programming work overseas is the rage right now, but what happens when they finally install the system and it's blowing up all over the place half the world away? The users are cursing under their breath because they are trying to describe to somebody who barely speaks English how to reproduce a bug on the phone.
I don't know, I just don't think the US software market is dead. I see a backlash coming down the pike. I hope, for our sake, I'm not wrong.
Why? Well, I know I'm damn good at what I do
, but seriously, there is a lot more to software development than having some geek in the corner cranking out code.The key is offering value-added services to basic programming services, such as consulting. The clients I deal with look for me for answers. They want to see me face to face and pour out their woes. They want me to help them make their work flow more efficient. So I hold their hand, I design something for them, I develop it, I install it, I train them, I visit them, I send them Christmas cards, I tell them Happy Birthday. I become the same to their business as their accountant, or attorney. I have their business for years.
Now, how can somebody working in China, or India, even come CLOSE to service such as this? They can't and never will. They may have the technical skills, but that is far short of what a complete software developer should do. They are just coders.
Internet meetings were the rage for a while, but people are going back to traveling for face to face meetings. Similarly, sending programming work overseas is the rage right now, but what happens when they finally install the system and it's blowing up all over the place half the world away? The users are cursing under their breath because they are trying to describe to somebody who barely speaks English how to reproduce a bug on the phone.
I don't know, I just don't think the US software market is dead. I see a backlash coming down the pike. I hope, for our sake, I'm not wrong.
IMHO:
The problem is:
How many people in the States come CLOSE to service such as this ? The sad answer is: not many. Hence, most programmers in US are expendable. A company can keep a few gurus in the States, and they can lead a team of IT people in India or China. Some investment banks have adopted this model not just for IT, but for business analysis and accounting too.
But I hope the tide will turn. Some of my friends are programmers.
I code C++ for fun. I also work in software industry (product design / development - the guy that tells the programmers what to do).
I have personal experience with overseas developers (from rent acoder) and also US programmers, from projects that required outside help.
I can say this - in this business, at least ( trading software ), 80 percent (maybe 90??) US programmers are foriegners, who have good grasp of english, working for large firms, on site.
I have also worked with rent a coder programmers. Guys in China, India, Bulgaria, who out bid every offer.... It is funny, in trading sense, these guys "shave" each other to get the job.
IMO, the work I have gotton from independent coders on a site like rent a coder is amazing, when i put into the prespective of cost.
Now, there is a very important decision making process involved....
That is, the grasp of this language (english) is #1 requirement. All these guys know the coding language, probably better then me or you. The problem comes from communicating the idea. If the idea cannot be communicated, because of a spoken language breakdown, do not expect the work to work.
I have had offers for work on rent a coder - guys from india, with broken language offer to do the job for $10. This is amazing, I could get this thing done for 10 bucks?? But come on, after talking to these people, the language and expression is so awful, that the problems are there from the beginging.
But, again, I have found developers who speak good english, and they deliver better, cheaper code.
I truly believe this to be the answer.
As far as this type of business threatning US programmers - absolutely. I am an aspiring developer, and hope to make a career of it (besides some trading ideas) and it scares me how these guys are available for so cheap, and the knowledge they possess. One reason for the advancment of these guys is alot of time to learn, and the oppresive natures of their countries lead to higher ambition to learn. (i have learned this from speaking to these guys 1 on 1). This alone is the reason they succeed.
I know of guys over there doing 10 projects at a time for US companies. At 100 a pop!
I have personal experience with overseas developers (from rent acoder) and also US programmers, from projects that required outside help.
I can say this - in this business, at least ( trading software ), 80 percent (maybe 90??) US programmers are foriegners, who have good grasp of english, working for large firms, on site.
I have also worked with rent a coder programmers. Guys in China, India, Bulgaria, who out bid every offer.... It is funny, in trading sense, these guys "shave" each other to get the job.
IMO, the work I have gotton from independent coders on a site like rent a coder is amazing, when i put into the prespective of cost.
Now, there is a very important decision making process involved....
That is, the grasp of this language (english) is #1 requirement. All these guys know the coding language, probably better then me or you. The problem comes from communicating the idea. If the idea cannot be communicated, because of a spoken language breakdown, do not expect the work to work.
I have had offers for work on rent a coder - guys from india, with broken language offer to do the job for $10. This is amazing, I could get this thing done for 10 bucks?? But come on, after talking to these people, the language and expression is so awful, that the problems are there from the beginging.
But, again, I have found developers who speak good english, and they deliver better, cheaper code.
I truly believe this to be the answer.
As far as this type of business threatning US programmers - absolutely. I am an aspiring developer, and hope to make a career of it (besides some trading ideas) and it scares me how these guys are available for so cheap, and the knowledge they possess. One reason for the advancment of these guys is alot of time to learn, and the oppresive natures of their countries lead to higher ambition to learn. (i have learned this from speaking to these guys 1 on 1). This alone is the reason they succeed.
I know of guys over there doing 10 projects at a time for US companies. At 100 a pop!
I find it amazing that programming as a whole has been so readily outsourced to overseas vendors. Certainly much of software development is mundane, everyday stuff, but a lot of software, especially commercial products, contain company trade secrets and/or use proprietory algorithms. Most of the software in countries such as China and India is pirated, so what is to stop them from taking the source code they develop for US companies, making a few screen changes, and selling it on their own? Who's going to take them to court?
I also agree with the previous poster that the level of service by US programmers is so bad that it makes them expendable, and this I agree. Many programmers are introverts and would rather hide in a cubicle programming all day instead of dealing with office politics. In many ways I am like this, but I forced myself to become a "people person" until it became second nature.
I also agree with the previous poster that the level of service by US programmers is so bad that it makes them expendable, and this I agree. Many programmers are introverts and would rather hide in a cubicle programming all day instead of dealing with office politics. In many ways I am like this, but I forced myself to become a "people person" until it became second nature.
I have been in the Software business since 1980. I too am very busy running a successful software venture as well as specifying the architecture for our products. I dont agree with your comments.
The model you speak of - superior customer service - will have fewer and fewer customers going forward. Many small consulting companies built their business originaly on this model. THere was a time when it worked as a selling point and that time is now over - except for very small dollar customers. The issue is the ubiquity of the internet, online training, and a host of advances that cut costs to do business remotely. Also, most of the common business models have enterprise architectures that are know so well known that the opportunities to grow just are not there except in very specialized - and typically technically difficult niches.
Offshore consultancies are simply hiring US liasons for management and consulting sales work: the days of big problem offshore projects are nearly over and these offshores will look like all the other large consultancies except for price.
The consulting business will only produce average returns - except for specialized niches protected by intellectual property - going forward. Pure software plays are another matter but will still be very difficult going forward unless the company has a superior technology.
CalTrader,
Fair enough. You are obviously referring to enterprise solutions while I, the "small dollar" projects. My willingness to go after the small dollar project is probably what has earned me a great living these last 11 years. The liability risk is much less to boot.
The number of small to medium sized businesses are increasing, and the majority of them to not have a full-time IT person. They want to be able to call on one person to tell them what to do. That is the role I play. Are they concerned about superior customer service? Absolutely.
There is no doubt that the corporate world is changing - it's become a cold, callous work environment where loyalty is first and foremost to the shareholders. I am not even pursuing this kind of work anymore.
I know you disagree with my statements, but I have the proof by my workload.
Have a great trading day!
Fair enough. You are obviously referring to enterprise solutions while I, the "small dollar" projects. My willingness to go after the small dollar project is probably what has earned me a great living these last 11 years. The liability risk is much less to boot.
The number of small to medium sized businesses are increasing, and the majority of them to not have a full-time IT person. They want to be able to call on one person to tell them what to do. That is the role I play. Are they concerned about superior customer service? Absolutely.
There is no doubt that the corporate world is changing - it's become a cold, callous work environment where loyalty is first and foremost to the shareholders. I am not even pursuing this kind of work anymore.
I know you disagree with my statements, but I have the proof by my workload.
Have a great trading day!