Seriously, can anybody trade the ES?

"it should be noted: since YM moved to Globex, slightly wider spreads, momentary, are more frequent, as is a need for price trade-through. OTOH, daily volume has increased."

yes. i've noticed that . microscalps are less efficient now on the globex system. i have always disliked globex (compared to CBOT) and this confirms it since i have now traded YM on both platforms.
 
"great post Whitser...question...when you say what you said here...have you traded 10 YM contracts "all in" and "all out"...either at market or limit?..."

yes. both. MOST of my trade setups use limit entries and limit exits (if profitable). stop-losses are stop-market orders.

i have noticed MORE slippage on globex (vs. CBOT) and the spread widens more frequently (to 2-3 pts vs. 1) pts. imo, YM is still superior to ES for mentioned trading styles/sizes, but GLOBEX has made YM inferior to how it was on the CBOT platform imo.

"no scaling in and out etc..."

i often scale out (depends on the setup) but usually with limit orders. again, depends on the setup.

"I've been wanting to move over to YM but have not got anyone to confirm it could handle such "All in/all out" trades on the YM...I would be trading 4-10 YM contracts "all in" and "all out"...I know market orders would get filled...how much slippage?...do 10 YM limit orders to enter a position get filled?...look forward to your response...really great...thanks..."

i almost never use market orders for entries, but generally speaking i would only use a market order on a "breakout" type trade, and i almost never trade the thrust of a breakout. but in my limited experience with those circumstances, you almost always get slippage regardless of size you are trading.
 
"The bid ask issue is widely misunderstood by many.

The price you 'get' has nothing to do with the b/a spread."

i am not going to get into the math here (i've done it before) but simply put you are wrong.

i generally make my entries on the bid, and having a smaller spread (relative to ATR on the given time scale) means more efficient entries and exits which means trades can be managed (before entry) for higher expectancy.

"The only way to 'capture' the spread is to buy on the bid and sell on the ask. "

correct. which is how i usually trade.

"But since these things move so fast, it's practically irrelevant unless you are trading 500 times a day by computer."

no, it's not. if you run the #'s, it makes adifference.



Waste of time to worry about the spread for most traders these days. This is not what makes or breaks you.
 
Quote from whitster:

"great post Whitser...question...when you say what you said here...have you traded 10 YM contracts "all in" and "all out"...either at market or limit?..."

yes. both. MOST of my trade setups use limit entries and limit exits (if profitable). stop-losses are stop-market orders.

i have noticed MORE slippage on globex (vs. CBOT) and the spread widens more frequently (to 2-3 pts vs. 1) pts. imo, YM is still superior to ES for mentioned trading styles/sizes, but GLOBEX has made YM inferior to how it was on the CBOT platform imo.

"no scaling in and out etc..."

i often scale out (depends on the setup) but usually with limit orders. again, depends on the setup.

"I've been wanting to move over to YM but have not got anyone to confirm it could handle such "All in/all out" trades on the YM...I would be trading 4-10 YM contracts "all in" and "all out"...I know market orders would get filled...how much slippage?...do 10 YM limit orders to enter a position get filled?...look forward to your response...really great...thanks..."

i almost never use market orders for entries, but generally speaking i would only use a market order on a "breakout" type trade, and i almost never trade the thrust of a breakout. but in my limited experience with those circumstances, you almost always get slippage regardless of size you are trading.
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thanks...great information and good to know!
 
The price you 'get' has nothing to do with the b/a spread."

I may have overstated the case here, of course a smaller spread will on average result in less slippage for 'takers' and 'hitters'

But it also costs liquidity providers or resting orders.

So whats the big deal.
 
seriously, can anybody trade the ES?

The OP asked this and today he posted.

04-24-08 04:29 PM



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Quote from callmate:

One trade was posted for one contract.


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Now that wasn't so hard was it?
Well, you didn't show your entire blotter or the p/l portion but ok, its a trade. Unless you only made 1 trade today. Anyway, hopefully you'll take me up on my everyday for a week offer. I don't care if you show losses, thats not the point. Don't be worried that you'll be bashed if you show losses 1 or 2 or 10 days in a row.


Even though nobody will say so, most everybody, I'm sure, appreciates seeing the actual trade.

You learn theory in school and then you want to see the theory applied to real world conditions. Thats were the trade details come into play!

I feel like I'm on an island all alone in my quest for more trade details on a daily basis (proof of consistency) from those that know what they're doing. Does anybody owe me anything? Certainly not, but what the heck, so much time is spent posting why not post whats really important. Moolah! Real world trades to solidify the theory. Jack talks about CASH all the time.

I'm not one of those trolls that post thousands of hershey bashing threads. I'm just looking for the honey so to speak.

If you look at the trader p/l thread you'll see stand up guys like lescor who posted on a daily basis for months to show people that yes trading is possible (of course he didn't tell us his system like spyder is).

Didn't spyder ask Mr_black to explain his trades in a previous post? So is the
teacher the bad guy just like me?


If I were profitable on a daily basis or semi daily basis I would be proud and more than happy to post my details to show the hundreds watching yes it can be done and here is the proof so you might learn something.

If nobody here is consistently profitable and is still in the learning phase then JUST SAY SO! Its OK.

Edit: I'm not going to ask anymore. If traders want to post blotters great. If not, dont. Good night and good bye.

I am going to make a statement on this by annotating it when I get around to it.
 
Quote

If nobody here is consistently profitable and is still in the learning phase then JUST SAY SO! Its OK.
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Everybody is in the learning process. Learning is a life long journey.

We go through MADA.
Most are at the M stage,
some can do some of the first A,
a few have figured out the D,
for those who are at the 2nd A, they start simming.
But some have jumped from M to the 2nd A with real money.

I do not speak for everybody, but from my observation, not many are at the consistently profitable stage.
Progress is one step at a time.
But for those who made it, they found a calm and stress free trading experience.

There you go, I hope the picture I painted did not unreasonably raise your expectation, or shatter your illusion that you might one day take up the journey.
 
"In other words, if the YM moves from 12500 to 12550 and one trader caught 12510 entry 12530 exit while another was 12512 entry 12542 exit, neither of them caught the bid/ask spread. Price action and the bid-ask spread kept going after they exited."

you still don't get it. i hate explaining math.

ok. i'll give you ONE example of why it's superior.

you make a market order entry. you buy the bid. oops. you are wrong. you sell the ask. you lost $5 per contract (+3.00 r/t commission )

with the ES, you lose more than twice as much.

small edges matter. wider bid/ask spread ESPECIALLY in trades with smaller targets/stops erode edge. in many cases, eliminate it.

again, anybody who understands math can understand why this makes a difference in eroding edge.
 
Quote from allenhobbs:

The Facts: the best traders in the world trade the ES. If you don't think you can compete with them, stay away. Maybe it's easier with other instruments. I don't know.
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You aren't really trading 'against' the best traders in the world. It is all about you-against-you. At least that is what I've found. Honor your stops and let your profits run (easier said than done for me).

The 'fake outs' in the ES can cause you the most heartbreak because it is sooo difficult to re-enter a position, in the same direction, after you've just been whipsawed.
 
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