After two months of following your postings and sometimes being critical of you, but praying for you after the WTC tragedy and enquiring of your safety on these pages, I feel I may have a solution for you, and I do not mean this maliscously, QUIT WRITING THIS INTROSPECTIVE JOURNAL. Concentrate on your trading parameters, concentrate on being a thinking local professional trader, NO OCTOBER JOURNAL. PERIOD. Enough. Good Luck.
September Trading Journals
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
Magna
Administrator
ddefina,
in defense of swing trading
Please understand I'm not against swing-trading, I had done it for years, and am looking to start up again on a small scale in my IRA. But I find mixing it with daytrading to be dangerous unless you can cleanly keep them apart, definitely in separate accounts. Otherwise daytrades gone bad magically start turning into swingtrades...
you don't make small percentage returns each month. 60%+ per month returns are possible
Anything is possible, but I doubt those numbers. A superb professional trader Gary B. Smith (columnist for theStreet.com) is a swing-trader and he's up about 24% this horrible, choppy year. That breaks down to 2.4% a month, compounded (not taking taxes into account). At 60% a month you would be a billionaire in less than 2 years starting with a $50,000 account. Move over Warren Buffet!
And you can make a living on a $50,000 account
Daytrading yes, swingtrading I doubt it. Let's take Gary Smith's numbers again, on a $50,000 account he would have earned about $1200 per month, hardly enough to live on. So is it possible, I suppose so. But is it realistic, I don't think so.
in defense of swing trading
Please understand I'm not against swing-trading, I had done it for years, and am looking to start up again on a small scale in my IRA. But I find mixing it with daytrading to be dangerous unless you can cleanly keep them apart, definitely in separate accounts. Otherwise daytrades gone bad magically start turning into swingtrades...
you don't make small percentage returns each month. 60%+ per month returns are possible
Anything is possible, but I doubt those numbers. A superb professional trader Gary B. Smith (columnist for theStreet.com) is a swing-trader and he's up about 24% this horrible, choppy year. That breaks down to 2.4% a month, compounded (not taking taxes into account). At 60% a month you would be a billionaire in less than 2 years starting with a $50,000 account. Move over Warren Buffet!
And you can make a living on a $50,000 account
Daytrading yes, swingtrading I doubt it. Let's take Gary Smith's numbers again, on a $50,000 account he would have earned about $1200 per month, hardly enough to live on. So is it possible, I suppose so. But is it realistic, I don't think so.
Lets just say I'm glad I don't have to rely on Gary Smith's breakout system to support me. I'll let someone else take up the cause of swing vs. daytrading. Maybe it's good that you daytraders believe what you do, that way you can continue to keep my slippage down.
And by the way, didn't Tony Oz have a decent return in his 4 week test awhile back...I know he didn't quite make the 60%+, but it does prove my number is possible once in awhile. I believe Tony posts to this board under the name Limitdown. Not sure though.
http://www.stockjunkie.com/inter.htm
Q: Your trading challenge was in full swing in April, when the Nasdaq lost 30% of its value in just two weeks. What percentage did you gain or lose during that period of time?
Tony: My returns for the challenge period were 32.5%. On the last day of the challenge I executed several more trades that were not closed until several days later, but couldnât technically be considered part of the challenge. If you do include those trades, just to see how I did throughout the crash, my return was 56% during a 30-day period.
And by the way, didn't Tony Oz have a decent return in his 4 week test awhile back...I know he didn't quite make the 60%+, but it does prove my number is possible once in awhile. I believe Tony posts to this board under the name Limitdown. Not sure though.
http://www.stockjunkie.com/inter.htm
Q: Your trading challenge was in full swing in April, when the Nasdaq lost 30% of its value in just two weeks. What percentage did you gain or lose during that period of time?
Tony: My returns for the challenge period were 32.5%. On the last day of the challenge I executed several more trades that were not closed until several days later, but couldnât technically be considered part of the challenge. If you do include those trades, just to see how I did throughout the crash, my return was 56% during a 30-day period.
Hitman you also have my vote for an October Journal if you wish to continue.
Other traders can learn by how watching your mentality. I do agree with Sniper trader and some of the others. I tend to run very similiar scans for my overbought/oversold indicators and do really well with them. I use different stops than Tony OZ does though (usually a lot closer for me) and only trade long when market going higher/ short when general market going lower which is different than he does. I have a profit target of 25% retracement no matter what and usually peel out of the position as it is working to reduce my risk (as I'm anti trend)
Don't let a week get to you. I got my head handed to me last week also (and of course that is when I stepped up my position size--- just know you can perform again wipe off the dust, and take them on)
rtharp
Other traders can learn by how watching your mentality. I do agree with Sniper trader and some of the others. I tend to run very similiar scans for my overbought/oversold indicators and do really well with them. I use different stops than Tony OZ does though (usually a lot closer for me) and only trade long when market going higher/ short when general market going lower which is different than he does. I have a profit target of 25% retracement no matter what and usually peel out of the position as it is working to reduce my risk (as I'm anti trend)
Don't let a week get to you. I got my head handed to me last week also (and of course that is when I stepped up my position size--- just know you can perform again wipe off the dust, and take them on)
rtharp
Bryan Roberts
Guest
ddefina,
being a very short term daytrader, and on behalf of many other daytraders, i say you are welcome. we don't mind keeping your slippage down, that is the benefit we bring to the market, i.e. liquidity. i would also like to say thank you!!!! we need swing traders and investors to hit your bids and take your offers as the market dictates......do you think there is room for all of us.
being a very short term daytrader, and on behalf of many other daytraders, i say you are welcome. we don't mind keeping your slippage down, that is the benefit we bring to the market, i.e. liquidity. i would also like to say thank you!!!! we need swing traders and investors to hit your bids and take your offers as the market dictates......do you think there is room for all of us.
Yes there will be an October journal.
Yes I can take stuff overnight now that I have about 20K in my account, however, it is very dangerous as Magna said to mix them up, and I would like to focus on intraday for now. It is too easy to mix them up, way too easy.
Rtharp, glad to hear that I wasn't the only one struggling last week, while I didn't get my head handed to me you can imagine what it felt like to be up $400 after first four games when everyone seemed to be making BIG money.
This was a frustrating month, for whatever reason everytime I make a run something stupid happens, like a blow out in frustration, data feed / technical issues, wrong orders . . . I need to be patient, yesterday anger got the best of me . . .
Apology to all who offered their wisdom, yesterday was plain frustrating with the month winding down and what should have been $1000 in the bank turned into $1000 in the red. Yet if I can not accept the comments on this thread, I shouldn't be trading, frustration is my worst enemy.
Yes I can take stuff overnight now that I have about 20K in my account, however, it is very dangerous as Magna said to mix them up, and I would like to focus on intraday for now. It is too easy to mix them up, way too easy.
Rtharp, glad to hear that I wasn't the only one struggling last week, while I didn't get my head handed to me you can imagine what it felt like to be up $400 after first four games when everyone seemed to be making BIG money.
This was a frustrating month, for whatever reason everytime I make a run something stupid happens, like a blow out in frustration, data feed / technical issues, wrong orders . . . I need to be patient, yesterday anger got the best of me . . .
Apology to all who offered their wisdom, yesterday was plain frustrating with the month winding down and what should have been $1000 in the bank turned into $1000 in the red. Yet if I can not accept the comments on this thread, I shouldn't be trading, frustration is my worst enemy.
Hitman,
Let the journals continue!
I always look forward to reading them as well as the comments from others. It can be fustrating to hear advice while going through a bad period (you don't want to be in my house when I have a bad day/week
). But try not to take it personally. Of course, we all might be sensitive if we were posting every detail of our successes/failures in a public forum.
In regard to mixing swing & day trading, it is possible if you are disciplined enough to keep the two types of trading seperate in your head. I use the same account and don't have a problem with it. But you must be disciplined enough to not let a losing intraday trade turn into a swinger. I've done this in the past, along with every other mistake you can imagine, but don't do it any more. To some degree, as it is with all trading, you have to think with your head and not let emotions overwhelm you. Easier said than done, I know.
Wishing you the best.........
Let the journals continue!
I always look forward to reading them as well as the comments from others. It can be fustrating to hear advice while going through a bad period (you don't want to be in my house when I have a bad day/week
). But try not to take it personally. Of course, we all might be sensitive if we were posting every detail of our successes/failures in a public forum.In regard to mixing swing & day trading, it is possible if you are disciplined enough to keep the two types of trading seperate in your head. I use the same account and don't have a problem with it. But you must be disciplined enough to not let a losing intraday trade turn into a swinger. I've done this in the past, along with every other mistake you can imagine, but don't do it any more. To some degree, as it is with all trading, you have to think with your head and not let emotions overwhelm you. Easier said than done, I know.
Wishing you the best.........
Hitman
There were also guys at my firm having $100,000 , $50,000 days easily. Meanwhile I looked at my system and my trades and couldn't figure it out a strategy that could easily work out
I actually had a gameplan to buy the bounce after the first or 2nd day as over 80% of the time the bounce is significant after a crisis. I was a week too early and had my head handed to me. Of course I upped my position size too which means I need to lick my wound for awhile.
Well I took high probability risk. If I was right I would have easily tripled my account in a day, but instead took a hit that will take me a month or 2 to recover from.
ddefina
Tony Oz posts as TonyOz he only has done 4 posts to date but used to be very active on the original elitetrader message board when it first started.
He left for Japan and should be returning soon. Hopefully he will join us again.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1970
was his last post.
rtharp
There were also guys at my firm having $100,000 , $50,000 days easily. Meanwhile I looked at my system and my trades and couldn't figure it out a strategy that could easily work out
I actually had a gameplan to buy the bounce after the first or 2nd day as over 80% of the time the bounce is significant after a crisis. I was a week too early and had my head handed to me. Of course I upped my position size too which means I need to lick my wound for awhile.
Well I took high probability risk. If I was right I would have easily tripled my account in a day, but instead took a hit that will take me a month or 2 to recover from.
ddefina
Tony Oz posts as TonyOz he only has done 4 posts to date but used to be very active on the original elitetrader message board when it first started.
He left for Japan and should be returning soon. Hopefully he will join us again.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1970
was his last post.
rtharp
Never before I would be so happy about a -$200 day, but for a moment today I thought I was out cold as my P&L said I was down $1300, and perhaps more importantly a carbon copy shooting performance of yesterday as I missed everything I took. What a gift that afternoon rally was, without it I would have been blown out guaranteed . . .
I came into the game with a long list of shorts, but off the open first thing I noticed was that CEX was up 1% and I took a chemical long. I actually made money off that but next thing I knew I was trading strictly off the daily's with looser stops, a total disaster. Never ever pick tops like yesterday's high and use them as resistance, if the daily chart is weak the stock should sell-off almost right away, if it goes up instead then the plan is not working don't even bother with it.
I have also realized that a huge asset in my game is the sector indexes, my watch list is too long and it contains too many stocks that don't follow anything. While it is cool to do those on group news, they should never ever be a priority. My nightly chart said short the hell out of ADI/IRF/MMM, and all 3 of them follow indexes as additional confirmations, I should have been focusing on those, instead I was staring at a list of 20 short ideas and scrambled.
I have also realized that there is no way in the world I am going to use wider stops, either the thing rolls in my favor immediately or it doesn't. I am starting most positions with 1000 shares nowadays trying to get myself to the next level, and I would rather churn than setting a quarter point stop and get spreaded for 40 cents. If I am right the thing should start rolling right away. I trade the way I trade, and that's sector index + tape.
I have narrowed my focus to 70 stocks, and in each sector I have assigned 1-2 goto stocks that I will go after immediately on index moves. I will try to trade the same stocks on a more consistent basis. I have been trying to catch every sector, every stock, every day, and that is just not possible. I need quality ideas, just 1 or 2 of them, and execute them properly. I am also going to learn to scalp GE/TYC, I have been trying to scalp too many stocks, just 2 solid stocks will do at first.
25800 shares on 10 of 19 shooting, +452 before commissions, -188 after, 1 bullet. Holding on to a ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS margin for the month going into the final game. I will do my best to secure a win tommorrow. My research was dead on today, my execution non-existent.
Pre-Market: Light news on Jewish Holiday, a batch of upgrades in auto part companies. I planned on shorting them so I took those out, wish I shorted that gap-up on JCI . . .
9:30: As soon as I saw CEX up 1% and DD opened down more than half a point I jumped to it and took some, got a quick 30 cents pop. OIX went through the roof I took some MUR and stopped out for a 20 cents loss. I knew the energy was oversold and I could smell a rally coming after 3 big down days. It wasn't the open, but that's ok. Took some PPG and stopped out for a nickle profit as everything reversed. By now, I realized I was too late, I had a short biase, why go for those easy but worthless scalps when I should have been setting up bullets?
9:40: Shorted WM and PG, they went up off the open, they were strong, most importantly I have never really traded those before. Took a dime loss on WM but I ended up flat on PG without counting the bullet cost. At least PG follows the futures to a certain extent. Shorted GPT but this stock was choppy, only got 20 cents out of it.
9:56: Big mistake, shorted PGR, a very strong stock on what seemed to be an IUX reversal, lost 60 cents, ouch, way too loose of a stop (40 cents, plus slippage it hurts!)
11:00: Went long in DOX and immediately got out for a 2 cents loss. A creature of the jungle has this instinct about positions and there is no need to wait for that support level to be hit, saved myself a lot of pain there.
11:25: I knew for a fact that the energy will rebound today, this gut feeling, I went long in SLB at 41.26 and CAM at 29.09, I put in a stop for cam at 28.85, he hit that exact penny and stopped me out at the intraday low. SLB hit my stop of 41.99 and that is a dime above the intraday low. What seemed to be a double bottom in SOX made me took IRF and I was spreaded for a 30 cents loss. I was so upset but I didn't get back in because at that time I was totally out cold with a $1300 deficit and horrendous shooting. My confidence was shaken.
12:39: Tried to bottomfish LIZ at the precise bottom, missed the fill and 1 point move. Tried to bottomfish Q did get filled but stopped out for a 20 cents loss. Ouch. Tried CAM again and sold for a dime profit this time, did I avoid a shakeout, yes, did I miss the 2 point move, yes. If I didn't take the previous trade I would have held on for sure, but after you get hit once it is hard. Churned Q some more. Churned RIG a little.
2:18: The long waited energy rally, only by now so many stock already ran from me, I anticipated all along and I could not get much out of it. Took RIG but the thing had so many offers and I took a quarter and missed the other half. Took KMI and got a quarter and it just refused to go up despite of a perfect chart set-up. Very very poor execution there. Took DO and got out flat missed a 1 point move, didn't believe it was real until it was too late.
2:30: Broad market rally, took HON and Q for quarter scalps. Took IBM for a nice 60 cents pop on a pullback, unfortunately just 400 shares on that trade as IBM can really hit you hard if you are wrong. Took NSM for a dime scalp, what a day! All the way back . . . Almost . . . Took a lucky gift to do it, but tommorrow I will play a much much tighter game.
I have been trying to do too much, I need to specialize, narrow my focus . . .
I came into the game with a long list of shorts, but off the open first thing I noticed was that CEX was up 1% and I took a chemical long. I actually made money off that but next thing I knew I was trading strictly off the daily's with looser stops, a total disaster. Never ever pick tops like yesterday's high and use them as resistance, if the daily chart is weak the stock should sell-off almost right away, if it goes up instead then the plan is not working don't even bother with it.
I have also realized that a huge asset in my game is the sector indexes, my watch list is too long and it contains too many stocks that don't follow anything. While it is cool to do those on group news, they should never ever be a priority. My nightly chart said short the hell out of ADI/IRF/MMM, and all 3 of them follow indexes as additional confirmations, I should have been focusing on those, instead I was staring at a list of 20 short ideas and scrambled.
I have also realized that there is no way in the world I am going to use wider stops, either the thing rolls in my favor immediately or it doesn't. I am starting most positions with 1000 shares nowadays trying to get myself to the next level, and I would rather churn than setting a quarter point stop and get spreaded for 40 cents. If I am right the thing should start rolling right away. I trade the way I trade, and that's sector index + tape.
I have narrowed my focus to 70 stocks, and in each sector I have assigned 1-2 goto stocks that I will go after immediately on index moves. I will try to trade the same stocks on a more consistent basis. I have been trying to catch every sector, every stock, every day, and that is just not possible. I need quality ideas, just 1 or 2 of them, and execute them properly. I am also going to learn to scalp GE/TYC, I have been trying to scalp too many stocks, just 2 solid stocks will do at first.
25800 shares on 10 of 19 shooting, +452 before commissions, -188 after, 1 bullet. Holding on to a ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS margin for the month going into the final game. I will do my best to secure a win tommorrow. My research was dead on today, my execution non-existent.
Pre-Market: Light news on Jewish Holiday, a batch of upgrades in auto part companies. I planned on shorting them so I took those out, wish I shorted that gap-up on JCI . . .
9:30: As soon as I saw CEX up 1% and DD opened down more than half a point I jumped to it and took some, got a quick 30 cents pop. OIX went through the roof I took some MUR and stopped out for a 20 cents loss. I knew the energy was oversold and I could smell a rally coming after 3 big down days. It wasn't the open, but that's ok. Took some PPG and stopped out for a nickle profit as everything reversed. By now, I realized I was too late, I had a short biase, why go for those easy but worthless scalps when I should have been setting up bullets?
9:40: Shorted WM and PG, they went up off the open, they were strong, most importantly I have never really traded those before. Took a dime loss on WM but I ended up flat on PG without counting the bullet cost. At least PG follows the futures to a certain extent. Shorted GPT but this stock was choppy, only got 20 cents out of it.
9:56: Big mistake, shorted PGR, a very strong stock on what seemed to be an IUX reversal, lost 60 cents, ouch, way too loose of a stop (40 cents, plus slippage it hurts!)
11:00: Went long in DOX and immediately got out for a 2 cents loss. A creature of the jungle has this instinct about positions and there is no need to wait for that support level to be hit, saved myself a lot of pain there.
11:25: I knew for a fact that the energy will rebound today, this gut feeling, I went long in SLB at 41.26 and CAM at 29.09, I put in a stop for cam at 28.85, he hit that exact penny and stopped me out at the intraday low. SLB hit my stop of 41.99 and that is a dime above the intraday low. What seemed to be a double bottom in SOX made me took IRF and I was spreaded for a 30 cents loss. I was so upset but I didn't get back in because at that time I was totally out cold with a $1300 deficit and horrendous shooting. My confidence was shaken.
12:39: Tried to bottomfish LIZ at the precise bottom, missed the fill and 1 point move. Tried to bottomfish Q did get filled but stopped out for a 20 cents loss. Ouch. Tried CAM again and sold for a dime profit this time, did I avoid a shakeout, yes, did I miss the 2 point move, yes. If I didn't take the previous trade I would have held on for sure, but after you get hit once it is hard. Churned Q some more. Churned RIG a little.
2:18: The long waited energy rally, only by now so many stock already ran from me, I anticipated all along and I could not get much out of it. Took RIG but the thing had so many offers and I took a quarter and missed the other half. Took KMI and got a quarter and it just refused to go up despite of a perfect chart set-up. Very very poor execution there. Took DO and got out flat missed a 1 point move, didn't believe it was real until it was too late.
2:30: Broad market rally, took HON and Q for quarter scalps. Took IBM for a nice 60 cents pop on a pullback, unfortunately just 400 shares on that trade as IBM can really hit you hard if you are wrong. Took NSM for a dime scalp, what a day! All the way back . . . Almost . . . Took a lucky gift to do it, but tommorrow I will play a much much tighter game.
I have been trying to do too much, I need to specialize, narrow my focus . . .