Self-sabotage. Why do we suffer and how to eliminate it.

[steve0617]

Quote from optionpro007:


Where does fear fit into this ? Is this the fear we had at one point of being eaten alive by an animal when we lived in caves ?

Don't see the connection.

I would argue that virtually all fear develops from the fear of loss and/or security. For traders like us, it's usually money, but it could be more than that. It all depends on how you view money and what it means to you and your personality.

Cavemen? Fear of loss (dying or not finding food)

Modern people? Fear of loss (dwelling/significant other's love/acceptance by society etc)

IMO, it all boils down to fear of what you place value on and what it would mean to you to lose that.

But usually of course, our brains make things out to be SO much worse then they ever actually are.

 

[LT701]

Quote from steve0617:

I would argue that virtually all fear develops from the fear of loss and/or security. For traders like us, it's usually money, but it could be more than that. It all depends on how you view money and what it means to you and your personality.

Cavemen? Fear of loss (dying or not finding food)

Modern people? Fear of loss (dwelling/significant other's love/acceptance by society etc)

IMO, it all boils down to fear of what you place value on and what it would mean to you to lose that.

But usually of course, our brains make things out to be SO much worse then they ever actually are.

'But usually of course, our brains make things out to be SO much worse then they ever actually are.'

no, sometimes it's exactly the opposite

that's what denial is

when something is worse than you allow yourself to consider

 

[Optionpro007]

Self-sabotage in the context of this thread does not come from fear, imo.

Unless if it was fear of death? don't see the connection.

But then, where does it comes from?

This much we can say:

1.- it has to have a natural source.

2.- it has been around since we lived in caves.

3.- to some degree or another it afflicts or can afflict anybody if not tended to, irrespective of their upbringing.

4.- It happens naturally to good and bad natured people irrespectively. It is very evident in some and well hidden in others.

5- Finding it's origin within our minds and taking care of it at it's source could change the world.

Quote from steve0617:

I would argue that virtually all fear develops from the fear of loss and/or security. For traders like us, it's usually money, but it could be more than that. It all depends on how you view money and what it means to you and your personality.

Cavemen? Fear of loss (dying or not finding food)

Modern people? Fear of loss (dwelling/significant other's love/acceptance by society etc)

IMO, it all boils down to fear of what you place value on and what it would mean to you to lose that.

But usually of course, our brains make things out to be SO much worse then they ever actually are.

 

[steve0617]

You are asking about self sabotage in two different contexts. I was offering my opinions in the trading aspects only, not in the philosophical area.

I don't think you'll get too much 'meeting of the minds' posting regarding the entire planet's history as it relates to self sabotage.

My opinion of course.

 

[CutsThrough]

Watch Two for the Money with Al Pacino and you’ll get a solid handle on what self-sabotage in trading/gambling is all about.

Most gamblers and traders, of the fish variety, are lemons. They have an internal defect that propels them to want to lose. The degenerate gambler doesn’t go into the casino to win. He goes in to lose. And even if he wins, it’s just a matter of time until he gives it all back. Think about all of your big losses. At the end, once you’ve re-created the worst possible scenario for the hundredth godamn time and are left standing there speechless, you realize: “I’m still standing. I’m still here. I’m still alive.” It’s an empowering feeling, the logical necessity of which is often lost on the lemon: When you lose so decisively, there’s nowhere to go but up. Instead, the lemon wears his constant comebacks from failure (brought about by his own behavior) as badges of courage – as proof he isn’t a loser, a lemon, a fish. But, he is. He creates the need for the comeback in the first place. It's a false victory.

Most gamblers and traders are addicted to the strife of loss. Most addicts generally use addiction to XYZ as a catalyst toward failure. Only those who are not affecedt by this metaphysical pathology are able to recover (or those who outgrow it). The rest of the lemons who never realize what’s going on or who never get tired of the strife, continue to use whatever catalyst their accustomed to in order to seek failure, and subsequently, stage their next comeback.

 

[HolyGrail]

Quote from steve0617:

Self sabotage comes from fear. Period.

Yep, that's all it is. Whether in the stock market or gambling, fear is the one emotion that is guaranteed to kill your profit.

 

[CutsThrough]

Quote from HolyGrail:

Yep, that's all it is. Whether in the stock market or gambling, fear is the one emotion that is guaranteed to kill your profit.

Ok - I'll play.

I say it's the opposite. The absence fear is the killer - a lack of appreciation for risk is a proxy for failure seeking behavior. It's the necessary condition for failure, and the subsequent comeback (an illusion of strength) that it necessitates.

When I daytraded, the only days I made money were the ones where I started off in the hole.

 

[yak merchant]

Quote from CutsThrough:

Watch Two for the Money with Al Pacino and you’ll get a solid handle on what self-sabotage in trading/gambling is all about.

Most gamblers and traders, of the fish variety, are lemons. They have an internal defect that propels them to want to lose. The degenerate gambler doesn’t go into the casino to win. He goes in to lose. And even if he wins, it’s just a matter of time until he gives it all back. Think about all of your big losses. At the end, once you’ve re-created the worst possible scenario for the hundredth godamn time and are left standing there speechless, you realize: “I’m still standing. I’m still here. I’m still alive.” It’s an empowering feeling, the logical necessity of which is often lost on the lemon: When you lose so decisively, there’s nowhere to go but up. Instead, the lemon wears his constant comebacks from failure (brought about by his own behavior) as badges of courage – as proof he isn’t a loser, a lemon, a fish. But, he is. He created the need for the comeback in the first place. It's a false victory.

Most gamblers and traders are addicted to the strife of loss. Most addicts generally use addiction to XYZ as a catalyst toward failure. Only those who are not affecedt by this metaphysical pathology are able to recover (or those who outgrow it). The rest of the lemons who never realize what’s going on or who never get tired of the strife, continue to use whatever catalyst their accustomed to in order to seek failure, and subsequently, stage their next comeback.

This is a big part of it. Another reason is the fear of finding success and/or the fear of finding out success is not possible. If you didn't perform the stupid self destructive behavior. Only one of two things can happen. Either you succeed or you fail. If you succeed, in most cases the success isn't as great as you envisioned (ie your trading doesn't allow you to yacht around Monte Carlo after an hour of options trading in the morning) and what you've worked so hard for does work in a way , but doesn't change your lifestyle like you had envisioned. Most importantly you now have no outlandish goal to dream about.

If you fail, you've failed for legitimate reasons, becuase it wasn't a stupid behavior that did you in. Either you aren't smart enough to pull it off, or the plan doesn't work and you've wasted years of your life.

Point is the self destructive behaviors are basically just procrastination. They let you think, "All I have to do is stop the stupid behaviors, and my dreams will come true". When in reality, they are just giving you an excuse to continue doing something that you know in the back of your mind isn't going to work at the current level of effort and knowledge you have. Now I'm not saying that because someone has self destructive behaviors he or she will not ever be able to trade profitably for a living. I am saying, that person isn't currently willing to really dig in and put forth the effort to find out what he or she is capable of. Because in either instance the truth will be told. Known success or known failure, and in either case it's usually not what the person "dreamed of"

 

[HolyGrail]

Quote from CutsThrough:

Ok - I'll play.

I say it's the opposite. The absence fear is the killer - a lack of appreciation for risk is a proxy for failure seeking behavior. It's the necessary condition for failure, and the subsequent comeback (an illusion of strength) that it necessitates.

When I daytraded, the only days I made money were the ones where I started off in the hole.

I would agree the absence of fear CAN be a killer, but only if you have no plan. Self-sabotage suggests that you DID NOT follow your plan and did something else. The most likely reason why would be fear.

 

[steve0617]

Quote from yak merchant:


Point is the self destructive behaviors are basically just procrastination.

Exactly. Your fear the effort of doing it right or even doing it at all are greater than the results of not doing it. Unless and until you eliminate the cause of the fear, or you attach more fear to not acting, you're stuck. And fear is the root.