Seeking BlackBox/GreyBox Systems

Quote from Avalanche:



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Quote from Lawrence Chan:

...Fully automated systems take out the human factor and avoid the emotional issues completely. ...
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That is actually false but it is often said on ET.

A human is ultimately the one that turns a system on or off....



well duh, if they turn the system off sure, but that's the whole point he's trying to make. its "fully" automated. Turning it on and off would relegate it back to a greybox like senario and hence it wouldn't be what most people would term fully automated....
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The distinctions you make are trivialized on ET. I have been developing systems for 25 years, and even at Hedge funds we found that people that ran them would want to second guess certain system trades based on their own outlook, or start to second guess the system during drawdowns.

The point is that the human is very much in the mix in trading systems, inspite of all the people that tell you otherwise.

Even the most extreme scientists are afflicted by these problems. Pick up "The Predictors" sometime and read the section when they went live....

nitro
 
Firms I used to work with do not have "traders" trading the systems, they have "monitors" monitoring the systems.

Abnormal activities are reported to the head trader who knows exactly what those system logics are thus can make more informed decision that the system developer any day.

Unluckily, an individual who develops his/her own systems is also the trader of the system, thus lacking this 3rd party control advantage.
 
LOL.

So true. That reminds me what ended up happening - they removed the person in charge away from the box and trained a "monitor" to handle the trading.

While that worked for the intraday decisions, when systems went into extended drawdowns it was still difficult to keep the person in charge from pulling the plug.

Ultimately, an objective way had to be implemented on when to take the system down. Not perfect, but at least a system was given a chance to recover.

For the typical person on ET though, hiring a monitor is not an option. For people that have this problem, the only real way to remove the intraday decisions from the system developer and to leave it in the hands of the system he developed, is to hand it over to one of those firms to "trade/monitor".

Otherwise, the "illusion" that when trading a computer-based system there is no emotion will be a real eye opener for most.

nitro
Quote from Lawrence Chan:

Firms I used to work with do not have "traders" trading the systems, they have "monitors" monitoring the systems.

Abnormal activities are reported to the head trader who knows exactly what those system logics are thus can make more informed decision that the system developer any day.

Unluckily, an individual who develops his/her own systems is also the trader of the system, thus lacking this 3rd party control advantage.
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Beware of traders - like the British Soul-Trader - claiming on their private blogs that their system make huge profits every dag, that they have found The Holy Grail, and you can buy it for only 2300 GBP. There's no proof for those daily monster profits (only winners, no losers), and if they in fact has found The Holy Grail, why sell it?
 
hello,
Black Box ?? Isnt it something that stores data in an aircraft and used for analysis only after a crash and no remains of anything left except the box which mostly becomes charred so its called black.
Same thing here ??
:p
 
Quote from nitro:



<skip>

For the typical person on ET though, hiring a monitor is not an option. For people that have this problem, the only real way to remove the intraday decisions from the system developer and to leave it in the hands of the system he developed, is to hand it over to one of those firms to "trade/monitor".

Otherwise, the "illusion" that when trading a computer-based system there is no emotion will be a real eye opener for most.

nitro
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Thats why I always tell beginners who try to system trade do not trade something they cannot handle mentally ...

Not everyone will listen though :(
 
Quote from nitro:

All these "seeking automated systems" are a joke. There have been at least two dozen of them recently, all by posters with 3 posts (likely aliases.) I responded in earnest to the poster in two or three of them and not once was there any interest. A friend of mine on ET also responded and also got no response.

It is either someone gathering information to see how many people respond, or a freak that gets off on these sorts of posts.

nitro
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Well it seems this thread has generated a little bit of interesting discussion anyways. To respond directly to your post nitro, I did not start this thread as a joke. I am quite serious about what I do and about the title of this thread! I have received a very good response from this thread. In point of fact, I have actually been working closely with a developer for sometime now on exactly the type of semi-automated system that I was seeking, as a direct result of a contact made through this thread. This has been a tremendously worthwhile exercise and I am glad that I chose to post this thread on elitetrader.

I would like to say that I think that the Elite Trader website is a tremendous resource. There are a lot of very intelligent and professional individuals on this site, there also a lot of assholes and idiots! Using this site is just like trading, you need to be able to tune out the noise in order to get to the good stuff. There is something here for everyone and you need to have the ability to take what is presented and make something out of it.

As far as my "seeking BlackBox/GreyBox systems" goes, I am still interested in hearing from individuals or groups that have systems that they wish to develop. I am interested in late stage stuff, systems that have shown results and that people are seeking to put to work in a different environment. To all those who have PM ed me, thank you. I try to make the effort to respond to all but if I have failed to respond to you my apologies.
So let's keep this thread active and hopefully it brings parties together that can mutually benefit.

Good trading to all !
 
Yeah, sure...uhuh.

nitro :D

Quote from AutoMate:

Well it seems this thread has generated a little bit of interesting discussion anyways. To respond directly to your post nitro, I did not start this thread as a joke. I am quite serious about what I do and about the title of this thread! I have received a very good response from this thread. In point of fact, I have actually been working closely with a developer for sometime now on exactly the type of semi-automated system that I was seeking, as a direct result of a contact made through this thread. This has been a tremendously worthwhile exercise and I am glad that I chose to post this thread on elitetrader.

I would like to say that I think that the Elite Trader website is a tremendous resource. There are a lot of very intelligent and professional individuals on this site, there also a lot of assholes and idiots! Using this site is just like trading, you need to be able to tune out the noise in order to get to the good stuff. There is something here for everyone and you need to have the ability to take what is presented and make something out of it.

As far as my "seeking BlackBox/GreyBox systems" goes, I am still interested in hearing from individuals or groups that have systems that they wish to develop. I am interested in late stage stuff, systems that have shown results and that people are seeking to put to work in a different environment. To all those who have PM ed me, thank you. I try to make the effort to respond to all but if I have failed to respond to you my apologies.
So let's keep this thread active and hopefully it brings parties together that can mutually benefit.

Good trading to all !
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