second amendment is a fundamental right?

"a well regulated militia..."

smthg i never understood, how does that phrase often glossed over mean gun rights to unregulated individuals?

ps: i'm for LIMITED gun ownership, ban semi-auto's and esp high-capacity clips whether rifle or handgun

let;s make these shooters need some reload time so they can be overpowered
 
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If that was how the entire amendment read, you would be right.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

"A well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" are two separate things.
 
"a well regulated militia..."

smthg i never understood, how does that phrase often glossed over mean gun rights to unregulated individuals?

ps: i'm for LIMITED gun ownership, ban semi-auto's and esp high-capacity clips whether rifle or handgun

let;s make these shooters need some reload time so they can be overpowered
now that Hillary knocked off Scalia she can put in a judge and confiscate all arms in America from people for whom the Second Ammendment is just "something they never understood."
 
If that was how the entire amendment read, you would be right.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

"A well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" are two separate things.
there is no "and" conjunction in there..

it's obvious they meant the right of the people to bear arms in a "well regulated militia".

BOTH conditions must be present or there is no "right" to arms. "the right to bear arms in a well regulated militia to secure the nation.

obviously referring to the nation's armed forces.

says nothing about the right of an individualist unregulated to bear arms. nothing. both conditions must be presnty
 
"a well regulated militia..."

smthg i never understood, how does that phrase often glossed over mean gun rights to unregulated individuals?

ps: i'm for LIMITED gun ownership, ban semi-auto's and esp high-capacity clips whether rifle or handgun

let;s make these shooters need some reload time so they can be overpowered

IN heller v district of Columbia, Justice Scalia goes into the matter of the Amendments introductory clause at great length and with great arm waving and wordsmanship. He concludes that the introductory clause is not restricting nor definitive (I don't agree but it is not for me to decide). He uses his 'originalism' defense -- which he only uses when convenient -- to separate the Amendment at its comma and take the the part after the comma as the definitive part. A little reflection reveals that if the second amendment is to be interpreted as strict constructionists might, then one has no choice but to conclude the Amendment is hopelessly obsolete and can not apply to the U.S. today. So avid hunter Scalia, a confirmed gun rights advocate, must somehow dispense with the introductory clause. He jettisons the introductory clause, though his reasons consisting mainly of arm waving and questionable use of the English language left me quite unconvinced, as it did some of his colleagues. His arguments for dispensing with the introductory clause are the weakest part of his majority opinion.

Having got entirely rid of the pesky introductory clause, Scalia falls back on 'originalism' to make two strong arguments in favor of gun rights, either of which would, if accepted, preclude any consideration of the introductory clause. Argument one is that in the original debate there was considerable opinion that State militias may be needed to protect against excessive intrusion on States' rights by the Federal Government. And by extension, individuals should be armed against undue Federal intrusion (To satisfy different points of view, the word "militia" in the amendment was apparently and intentionally left vague as to whether it was referring to State militias or a Federal militia made up of States' militias. Now State militias no longer apply, as that role is superseded by the National Guard. But originalist Scalia, having already jettisoned the non-definitive, in his view,introductory clause, used the armed citizen against the 'federalies' argument to bolster his support for the right to bear arms. (This surely made the NRA folks exceedingly Joyous, as they have been stockpiling for years against the time when the Federal Government comes knocking.)

The second argument, and the one that carries the most weight in my mind and an argument most skillfully made by Justice Scalia, is the inalienable right argument. What makes this argument so powerful is that, if accepted, it makes the Second Amendment superfluous regardless of its wording. If inalienable, then our right to bear arms is conferred at birth and cannot be taken away other than by due process. His argument was based on English law from which our own law descends. It shows Scalia at his finest and most brilliant!

It should be mentioned that Scalia brings up specifically the issue of whether our inalienable right extends to any type of firearm, and he concludes firmly that it does not! Restrictions on the types of firearms one may bear are not precluded by the Courts opinion!

Heller is now the law of the land. It is the landmark case brilliantly argued by the crafty, slippery, and sometime originalist, Justice Scalia. A masterpiece of legal argument in my opinion. It's long and it's convoluted. It must have driven his clerks nearly mad and exhausted them. I recommend that anyone interested in the current status of our right to bear arms look it up and read it through. I maintain his weakest argument is the one he used to jettison the introductory clause, but in any case his inalienable right argument is so strong as to make that issue entirely moot.
 
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there is no "and" conjunction in there..

it's obvious they meant the right of the people to bear arms in a "well regulated militia".

BOTH conditions must be present or there is no "right" to arms. "the right to bear arms in a well regulated militia to secure the nation.

obviously referring to the nation's armed forces.

says nothing about the right of an individualist unregulated to bear arms. nothing. both conditions must be presnty
Opinions, they do vary. In my post I used the word "and" to distinguish what are obviously, IMO, two different thoughts being proposed in one sentence. But, for the sake of argument, lets say they, the founders, meant that only a militia can bear arms. Define militia. Here, I'll do it for you.
The classes of the militia are:
(1)the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Okay, now that we have that out of the way we can all agree that the "people" as individuals are an "unorganized militia". Now we must address the question, how many people constitutes a militia? We can safely assume that the word "members" would imply more than one person, but there is no definition I can find of what the minimums and maximums are. One might argue that in order to own a gun legally, one must be a member of an "unorganized militia".
Perhaps that would be an avenue that the left would like to pursue in their attempt to regulate guns.
 
you are losing me with #2:

2)the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

"Okay, now that we have that out of the way we can all agree that the "people" as individuals are an "unorganized militia".


i can't follow your logic here, would you pls clarify?

what was the definition of "militia" in the era of our founding fathers?

what did "militia" mean to them?
 
as you pretend that Scalia was disingenuous...
you left out the part of the argument that virtually shuts down your whole argument...

The militas that in part saved our country from the brits were mostly private armed citizens and locally organized. Many of non minutemen did not travel at first as they were organized to protect their local areas. They were not professional soliders or anything like a state supplied and run national guard. Most militiamen had to provide their own guns and equip themselves with their own provisions. In part it had to be that way because the brits (like your team would like to do) would try to take their guns and ammo when it was centrally located... particularly when the Colonies had purchased the material from Britain.

In short militia were not "superseded" by the national guard.... whatever that means. Our constitutional right to have local controlled private miltias shall not be abridged.

You can't have local armed militias without guns.

http://www.historyisfun.org/yorktown-victory-center/militia-in-the-revolutionary-war/


"From the earliest years of English settlement, colonists had depended on local groups of part-time citizen soldiers to defend themselves from the Indians or at times to maintain law and order. By the time of the French and Indian War, American colonists had come to rely more on British troops and volunteer provincial units for protection, but even though the militia system had deteriorated, Americans held fast to their faith in the concept of the citizen soldier. Beginning with the Stamp Act crisis and extending throughout the Revolution, the Americans’ experience with the British Army only strengthened their hatred of standing armies as implements of monarchy and tyranny and a threat to civilian government."


IN heller v district of Columbia, Justice Scalia goes into the matter of the Amendments introductory clause at great length and with great arm waving and wordsmanship. He concludes that the introductory clause is not restricting nor definitive (I don't agree but it is not for me to decide). He uses his 'originalism' defense -- which he only uses when convenient -- to separate the Amendment at its comma and take the the part after the comma as the definitive part. A little reflection reveals that if the second amendment is to be interpreted as strict constructionists might, then one has no choice but to conclude the Amendment is hopelessly obsolete and can not apply to the U.S. today. So avid hunter Scalia, a confirmed gun rights advocate, must somehow dispense with the introductory clause. He jettisons the introductory clause, though his reasons consisting mainly of arm waving and questionable use of the English language left me quite unconvinced, as it did some of his colleagues. His arguments for dispensing with the introductory clause are the weakest part of his majority opinion.

Having got entirely rid of the pesky introductory clause, Scalia falls back on 'originalism' to make two strong arguments in favor of gun rights, either of which would, if accepted, preclude any consideration of the introductory clause. Argument one is that in the original debate there was considerable opinion that State militias may be needed to protect against excessive intrusion on States' rights by the Federal Government. And by extension, individuals should be armed against undue Federal intrusion (To satisfy different points of view, the word "militia" in the amendment was apparently and intentionally left vague as to whether it was referring to State militias or a Federal militia made up of States' militias. Now State militias no longer apply, as that role is superseded by the National Guard. But originalist Scalia, having already jettisoned the non-definitive, in his view,introductory clause, used the armed citizen against the 'federalies' argument to bolster his support for the right to bear arms. (This surely made the NRA folks exceedingly Joyous, as they have been stockpiling for years against the time when the Federal Government comes knocking.)

The second argument, and the one that carries the most weight in my mind and an argument most skillfully made by Justice Scalia, is the inalienable right argument. What makes this argument so powerful is that, if accepted, it makes the Second Amendment superfluous regardless of its wording. If inalienable, then our right to bear arms is conferred at birth and cannot be taken away other than by due process. His argument was based on English law from which our own law descends. It shows Scalia at his finest and most brilliant!

It should be mentioned that Scalia brings up specifically the issue of whether our inalienable right extends to any type of firearm, and he concludes firmly that it does not! Restrictions on the types of firearms one may bear are not precluded by the Courts opinion!

Heller is now the law of the land. It is the landmark case brilliantly argued by the crafty, slippery, and sometime originalist, Justice Scalia. A masterpiece of legal argument in my opinion. It's long and it's convoluted. It must have driven his clerks nearly mad and exhausted them. I recommend that anyone interested in the current status of our right to bear arms look it up and read it through. I maintain his weakest argument is the one he used to jettison the introductory clause, but in any case his inalienable right argument is so strong as to make that issue entirely moot.
 
IN heller v district of Columbia, Justice Scalia goes into the matter of the Amendments introductory clause at great length and with great arm waving and wordsmanship. He concludes that the introductory clause is not restricting nor definitive (I don't agree but it is not for me to decide). He uses his 'originalism' defense -- which he only uses when convenient -- to separate the Amendment at its comma and take the the part after the comma as the definitive part. A little reflection reveals that if the second amendment is to be interpreted as strict constructionists might, then one has no choice but to conclude the Amendment is hopelessly obsolete and can not apply to the U.S. today. So avid hunter Scalia, a confirmed gun rights advocate, must somehow dispense with the introductory clause. He jettisons the introductory clause, though his reasons consisting mainly of arm waving and questionable use of the English language left me quite unconvinced, as it did some of his colleagues. His arguments for dispensing with the introductory clause are the weakest part of his majority opinion.

Having got entirely rid of the pesky introductory clause, Scalia falls back on 'originalism' to make two strong arguments in favor of gun rights, either of which would, if accepted, preclude any consideration of the introductory clause. Argument one is that in the original debate there was considerable opinion that State militias may be needed to protect against excessive intrusion on States' rights by the Federal Government. And by extension, individuals should be armed against undue Federal intrusion (To satisfy different points of view, the word "militia" in the amendment was apparently and intentionally left vague as to whether it was referring to State militias or a Federal militia made up of States' militias. Now State militias no longer apply, as that role is superseded by the National Guard. But originalist Scalia, having already jettisoned the non-definitive, in his view,introductory clause, used the armed citizen against the 'federalies' argument to bolster his support for the right to bear arms. (This surely made the NRA folks exceedingly Joyous, as they have been stockpiling for years against the time when the Federal Government comes knocking.)

The second argument, and the one that carries the most weight in my mind and an argument most skillfully made by Justice Scalia, is the inalienable right argument. What makes this argument so powerful is that, if accepted, it makes the Second Amendment superfluous regardless of its wording. If inalienable, then our right to bear arms is conferred at birth and cannot be taken away other than by due process. His argument was based on English law from which our own law descends. It shows Scalia at his finest and most brilliant!

It should be mentioned that Scalia brings up specifically the issue of whether our inalienable right extends to any type of firearm, and he concludes firmly that it does not! Restrictions on the types of firearms one may bear are not precluded by the Courts opinion!

Heller is now the law of the land. It is the landmark case brilliantly argued by the crafty, slippery, and sometime originalist, Justice Scalia. A masterpiece of legal argument in my opinion. It's long and it's convoluted. It must have driven his clerks nearly mad and exhausted them. I recommend that anyone interested in the current status of our right to bear arms look it up and read it through. I maintain his weakest argument is the one he used to jettison the introductory clause, but in any case his inalienable right argument is so strong as to make that issue entirely moot.

In other words, he got it right.
 
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