"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Do you scale out of positions?

  • I always scale out

    Votes: 113 14.1%

  • I scale out most of the time

    Votes: 228 28.5%

  • Most of the time, I do not scale out

    Votes: 189 23.6%

  • I never scale out

    Votes: 270 33.8%
  • Total voters
    800
Quote from NihabaAshi:



By the way, the thread starter twice told me in this thread he wasn't interested in real trading situations...

One such occasion he requested I start a thread elsewhere on such a topic involving real trade conditions where scaling out is more important. :D

That told me he was talking more about theory than what actually happens.


Mark
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False.

I am very interested in real trading situations. In real trading, it makes sense to remove all the trade at once and get into trades all at once at all times. If you trade an instrument that is difficult to get out of all at once, then the position should be smaller or you shouldn't trade that instrument period.

My suggestion was not about opening another thread about real trading situations. My suggestion was that your discussion of what is in trader A's head versus what is in trader B's head is not relevant ro this debate. The math doesn't change based upon a trader's style. It is always better in the long run to not scale in or out.

I am certainly not discussing just theory here. I'm talking in terms of reality. :)
 
Quote from Buy1Sell2:

False.

I am very interested in real trading situations. In real trading, it makes sense to remove all the trade at once and get into trades all at once at all times. If you trade an instrument that is difficult to get out of all at once, then the position should be smaller or you shouldn't trade that instrument period.

My suggestion was not about opening another thread about real trading situations. My suggestion was that your discussion of what is in trader A's head versus what is in trader B's head is not relevant ro this debate. The math doesn't change based upon a trader's style. It is always better in the long run to not scale in or out.

I am certainly not discussing just theory here. I'm talking in terms of reality. :)
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My trader A and trader B were via real trader examples along with being based upon two ET journals.

Simply, they were not hypothetical examples.

Further, I specially stated via the trader A and trader B examples that there are particular situations where scaling out is the appropriate approach and I gave specific examples of when all out at once is the appropriate approach.

As I said before, depending upon the particular trade situation...

One is more favorable than the other.

In addition, as I and many others mention, most traders that scale out also exit all out during those particular situations when merited.

I did give specific examples before and here's one example again of such...

Trader A has a 7 point profit target, market reaches only the 6 point area but then begins to retrace until it hits the profitable trailing stop that takes out the entire position.

The above is reality and in contrast with the article you posted many moons ago that represented a trading approach by a minority of traders.

Once again, I specifically stated my examples were based upon real trading conditions and you replied back by saying its not the discussion for this thread and that I was welcome to start a thread on such.

Regardless, you haven't addressed the real trading situation mentioned by the prior poster as a reminder.

Quote from illiquid:

Have you ever tried to sell 3000 shares of BIDU exactly at the "top"? Or at any single price or moment in time, for that matter?

The real "truth" is that adaptability is the ONLY secret to successful over the long haul (meaning multiple decades). Scaling out becomes a necessity every successful trader eventually needs to deal with, because let's face it, if you really know what you're doing, I mean REALLY know, you will get big, and get big fast, relatively speaking.

Specifically, when it comes to intraday equities trading, scaling in/out is more than just a strategic option -- it's almost intrinsic to the profitable trader's mindset. Those who understand how the tape functions know exactly what I'm talking about. Those who have failed miserably in this regard and automatically claim one single way to trade "properly" -- well, their 'conclusions' are unsurprising and speak for themselves.
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Simply, both approaches have their strengths and weakness.

There are specific trade situations (not trading styles as you said) where scaling out has more merits and the above example by illiquid is just one example out of many real trading situations that I know for fact that scaling out has more merits than all out at once.

Just the same, there are specific trade situations where all in and all out has more merits than scaling and I've already mentioned one particular real trading example of such in this thread.

I support both and I apply both as I've mentioned several times in this thread.

By the way, I trade the Russell 2000 Emini ER2 and on some occasions there are times when trading a very large ER2 position that scaling out at/above the profit target when reached has more merits because I know what happens when trying to exit a ER2 large position all at once when the levels are thin.

Also, I have a few pals that are institutional traders.

Go try to tell them big boys how inferior scaling out is and that they should enter and exit their entire trade positon all at once. :p

I'm sure most will respond with a simple question if you trade.

Mark
 
Trader A and Trader B can use different styles and different time frames. One can be discretionary and one automated. One can be well adjusted and one can be manic-depressive. One can have large capital and one can have little or no capital. None of these things apply to real situation math which shows that the trader reaping the greatest benefit over the long haul will be the one who does not use scaling ever. Common sense would tell you that if I hold a position (even on a one minute frame signal) to the target or trailing stop with full position, and I cut my losers short, that I will be more profitable, or lose less than scaling traders. This is not on one individual trade, but over the long haul. :)
 
Quote from NihabaAshi:

[B By the way, I trade the Russell 2000 Emini ER2 and on some occasions there are times when trading a very large ER2 size that scaling out at/above the profit target when reached has more merits because I know what happens when trying to exit a large position all at once.

Also, I have a few pals that are institutional traders.

Go try to tell them big boys how inferior scaling out is and that they should exit their enter and exit their entire trade positon all at once. :p

Mark [/B]
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I was wondering when someone was going to move this thread out of the realms of fantasy and into the real world, especially when you are holding long on a large parcel.

regards
f9
 
Quote from Buy1Sell2:

Trader A and Trader B can use different styles and different time frames. One can be discretionary and one automated. One can be well adjusted and one can be manic-depressive. One can have large capital and one can have little or no capital.

None of these things apply...
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Strongly agree. :cool:

Mark
 
Quote from fearless9:

I was wondering when someone was going to move this thread out of the realms of fantasy and into the real world, especially when you are holding long on a large parcel.

regards
f9
More...

I have been posting reality from the get go. :)
 
Trader A and Trader B can use different styles and different time frames. One can be discretionary and one automated. One can be well adjusted and one can be manic-depressive. One can have large capital and one can have little or no capital. None of these things apply to real situation math which shows that the trader reaping the greatest benefit over the long haul will be the one who does not use scaling ever. Common sense would tell you that if I hold a position (even on a one minute frame signal) to the target or trailing stop with full position, and I cut my losers short, that I will be more profitable, or lose less than scaling traders. This is not on one individual trade, but over the long haul.
:)
 
Chewbacca has broken it down perfectly, what else is there to talk about? B1S2 is right, it's just simple math. It's not logical to continue arguing with his statement basing it on how impractical it is, impractical to who, to you? B1S2 is into wealth creation, people in arms for scaling in/out are into trading where trading is a continuous daily environment i.e. a 9-5 job. Find a way to walk away from your LCDs people.
 
i think b1s2 is dead on. I know from experience. I've been scaling out for years now, more often scaling out way too early. For the very reason he stated. Because i take on too much risk. I see this happen to me everyday. Although i do like how it works for me on 4 out of 5 trades, in the end that one that would have worked would have out weighted the 4 winning trades.
 
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