"Scaling out" is inferior behavior

Do you scale out of positions?

  • I always scale out

    Votes: 113 14.1%
  • I scale out most of the time

    Votes: 228 28.5%
  • Most of the time, I do not scale out

    Votes: 189 23.6%
  • I never scale out

    Votes: 270 33.8%

  • Total voters
    800
Quote from romik:

You guys should take it easy on B1, he is one trader that brings more quality info than 90% of ET 50000+ members. Anybody that has followed his posts would agree. Just because there is no agreement on this issue does not justify inappropriate personal branding.

Shrug, he was the one who started with the "inferior" blanket label "for all time frames" etc. Not us. And that's really where the bulk of the discussion has been revolving around -- I couldn't care less what he does with his own account.

That's the hitch to ET, "quality" information for one trader/style/method/market = disinformation for another.
 
Quote from illiquid:

Since b1s2 advocates trading the longer term, risking 2% on any given trade idea -- it's really no wonder that he doesn't condone scaling, there's basically no room for it. When trading such long time frames, you will need to have stops that are quite wide, and to limit your losses to 2% it means your position size relative to your account size will be much smaller than a shorter-term trader. To let go of a good trade even partially prematurely is very costly in this scenario.

What he is missing here in his personal disdain for short-term trading is that one can take much larger positions with tigher stops on the shorter time frame; for every 1 contract b1s2 takes, the shorter-term trader given the same size account will probably be comfortable with 5. What we've been trying to convince him of is that if both traders decide to take positions at the same time in the same direction, the shorter-term trader always has the option of holding for a longer term position, by scaling out of his "short-term" size, and reducing into a position size more commensurate for a longer term trade -- thus, in this case, "scaling out" helps keep him in the position longer, and it's a "given" who makes more money here.

It might just be a matter of perspective for when scaling is appropriate, but compared to the longer-term trader who cannot handle the shorter-term as well and must stick to that smaller position size to maintain his 2% loss limit -- well, it's quite obvious what is actually the inferior case here. So consider yourself right for your own trading purposes, but if you're going to use the label "inferior" on anything, you might want to start with your own forehead.
My assertion that scaling out is deficient doesn't have anything to do with whether or not I like short term trading. I am saying that no matter what time frame is traded, 1 minute or 10 years, scaling out is inferior. You have missed the whole point.
 
Quote from volente_00:

Do you believe that scaling in is inferior also B1S2 ?

no. I believe that is a fantastic way to enter as long as you keep within your parameters of position size and don't overextend.
 
Here is my arguement, you say you miss the meat of the profit when you scale out, what are you missing when you are right about the move but only scale in buying 2 instead of 20 at the very start of the trade ? BTW aren't all of your trades hedged with options ?
 
Quote from Cutten:


I call BS. I would be highly surprised if you were in fact a profitable trader. I think it's much more likely that you are a fake and a liar.


Sorry--no it's not BS. I've given you the honest answers here in this thread. You may take the suggestions or not --it's up to you. However, I am not selling anything and I am not a fake.
 
Quote from volente_00:

Here is my arguement, you say you miss the meat of the profit when you scale out, what are you missing when you are right about the move but only scale in buying 2 instead of 20 at the very start of the trade ? BTW aren't all of your trades hedged with options ?

No my trades are not all hedged with options until I feel we are nearing a top. As a market climbs I begin scaling in call option sales well out of the money. When the market is near the top, I will be fully hedged. I have not had a losing option trade since the 1992 Soybean market. As far as the scaling in goes, the move seldom(and I mean very seldom) takes off without me. If it does, I go full bore at that time. Very few times that this happens.
 
I scale out sometimes for the very same reason you scale in. We are truly guessing when it comes to entry and exit , we don't know 100% that the move will continue while we are in the trade. I can pull 2 point trades out of ES all day long but when I don't sell half at 2 points and move the stop to either break even I am violating my rule of letting a winner turn into a loser. I can tell you I have left far more money on the table exiting all at once than scaling out and letting the trade run on the rest. I actually think anyone trading futures should start with 2 contracts. One of the main reasons people fail at trading is because they don't know how to let their winners run. When you have 2 contracts you can sell 1 at 2 point profit, set it to BE and if the move continues that is great, if it retraces back then you still made money on the trade but at least it lets you satisfy the internal struggle between fear and greed without affecting your profitability.
 
Quote from volente_00:

I scale out sometimes for the very same reason you scale in. We are truly guessing when it comes to entry and exit , we don't know 100% that the move will continue while we are in the trade. I can pull 2 point trades out of ES all day long but when I don't sell half at 2 points and move the stop to either break even I am violating my rule of letting a winner turn into a loser. I can tell you I have left far more money on the table exiting all at once than scaling out and letting the trade run on the rest. I actually think anyone trading futures should start with 2 contracts. One of the main reasons people fail at trading is because they don't know how to let their winners run. When you have 2 contracts you can sell 1 at 2 point profit, set it to BE and if the move continues that is great, if it retraces back then you still made money on the trade but at least it lets you satisfy the internal struggle between fear and greed without affecting your profitability.

Playing to not lose instead of playing to win.
 
Quote from OddTrader:

Snail oil --- Yes! :D

Disagree with the man's philosophy, sure.

But don't insult his trading, I've seen him make real-time calls in multiple instruements across all of the major asset classes:

Financial Indicies
Curriencies
Agriculture , etc.

I'm sure he trades quite a few more than what I've listed, those are just the categories in which I've lurked and seen him make the calls. Whatever he is doing, it works for anything that leaves an OHLC.

Can I say the same? Can you? In fact, how many on here can, for that matter?(um, that falls under the category of rhetorical).

No, he defiitely isn't snak oil.

Regards,

Jimmy
 
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