Saxotrader pros & cons

Quote from Lon Eagle:

I am sure you are right but I feel I should comment on a couple of your points.

On what basis do you say Deutsche are a part owner? I know there is a dealing relationship but not sure there is any ownership. Indeed there is no mention of this on Saxo's own website. Indeed They state that 85% of the equity is held by the holding company with the rest held by Saxo's management.

Deutsche have got a subordinated loan with Saxo but this ,I believe, is for only Eur10m . Interestingly at the time of the loan it was equal in value to the bank's capital. This does show how small the bank is in reality. I would stress though that a subordinated loan does not equal ownership and indeed Deutsche have no one on the Board. As a rule you will find all very small banks have to have suboridnated loans from other banks to help the Central Bank's liquidity requirments. They are not usually cheap though.

On what basis do you say Deutsche is Europe's largest bank. Its credit rating with Moodys is only Aa3 - a number of European banks have considerably better credit ratings and considered more credit worthy. Surely that is the best way to evaluate a bank's strength. I believe it is not the largest bank by capital either.
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In 2003 Saxo Bank got 10m Euro in capital from Deutsche Bank, so Deutsche Bank is now among the owners of Saxo Bank. Yes, Saxo Bank is not a big bank, but it is a very profitable bank. By the way: The first 30k Euro placed in Saxo Bank are covered by a insurance fund, which all Danish banks belongs to. So your money are safe.
I believe Deutsche Bank is the bank in Europe with most customers.

P.S. I am only a customer in Saxo Bank.
 
Quote from Baruch:

In 2003 Saxo Bank got 10m Euro in capital from Deutsche Bank, so Deutsche Bank is now among the owners of Saxo Bank. Yes, Saxo Bank is not a big bank, but it is a very profitable bank. By the way: The first 30k Euro placed in Saxo Bank are covered by a insurance fund, which all Danish banks belongs to. So your money are safe.
I believe Deutsche Bank is the bank in Europe with most customers.

P.S. I am only a customer in Saxo Bank.
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A syndicated loan does not make you an owner -why do you think it does? If Saxo was to go bust then Deutsche would probably lose its Eur10m but would have absolutely no obligation to lend any more funds or have any responsibility to one single Saxo customer. I wouls also point out that even if Deutsche did have some ownership in Saxo (which is does not) then it would have no obligation to add to its investment unless htere was a guarantee in place.

Profiitable does not equate to safe - Barings was very profitable. The key to any bank's safety is the size of its capital. For saxo this was as little as eur10m in 2003 and I believe the figure is not substantially different now.

Your money is not safe - the first EUR 30k is - a big difference.

I am not saying for one second that Saxo is about to go bust or that people should not deal with them. I do think people should be very careful when claiming certain things to be facts though when this is not the case.

Hope this helps to clarify any mis-understanding.
 
Quote from Lon Eagle:

A syndicated loan does not make you an owner -why do you think it does? If Saxo was to go bust then Deutsche would probably lose its Eur10m but would have absolutely no obligation to lend any more funds or have any responsibility to one single Saxo customer. I wouls also point out that even if Deutsche did have some ownership in Saxo (which is does not) then it would have no obligation to add to its investment unless htere was a guarantee in place.

Profiitable does not equate to safe - Barings was very profitable. The key to any bank's safety is the size of its capital. For saxo this was as little as eur10m in 2003 and I believe the figure is not substantially different now.

Your money is not safe - the first EUR 30k is - a big difference.

I am not saying for one second that Saxo is about to go bust or that people should not deal with them. I do think people should be very careful when claiming certain things to be facts though when this is not the case.

Hope this helps to clarify any mis-understanding.
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Saxo Bank will not go broke because we don't allow banks to go broke in Denmark. That's why we keep a close eye on Saxo - and all other banks.
But if it happened, your first 30K is safe . No matter what.
So Saxo Bank is much more safe than any US broker.

PS. I don't think Deutsche Bank would invest 10m Euro in Saxo Bank if they were dishonest people.
 
I am sure you are a very good honest trader Baruch (and I usually read your comments with interest) but think your replies on this thread leave something to be desired and are very naive. No one can be sure - that is one reason credit agencies like Moodys and Standard and Poors exist, to help alert people to potential probelms. They make mistakes as well though. It is also why all banks have limits for other banks. For example Barclays traders would have a limit for the amount of business they can transact with any other bank - even say Nat West. A central bank insists all banks go through this process for the very reason it is prudent management.

I would also point out that Saxo do not have a credit rating with Moodys.


None of this is to mock Saxo and I agree I think they are probably more secure than the US brokers, most of whom I refuse to trade with.I certainly would not deposit a large amount of funds though for security reasons. In reality I would not trade with them anyway due to my colleagues experience but that is not to say anyone else should not.
 
Quote from Lon Eagle:

I am sure you are a very good honest trader Baruch (and I usually read your comments with interest) but think your replies on this thread leave something to be desired and are very naive. No one can be sure - that is one reason credit agencies like Moodys and Standard and Poors exist, to help alert people to potential probelms. They make mistakes as well though. It is also why all banks have limits for other banks. For example Barclays traders would have a limit for the amount of business they can transact with any other bank - even say Nat West. A central bank insists all banks go through this process for the very reason it is prudent management.

I would also point out that Saxo do not have a credit rating with Moodys.


None of this is to mock Saxo and I agree I think they are probably more secure than the US brokers, most of whom I refuse to trade with.I certainly would not deposit a large amount of funds though for security reasons. In reality I would not trade with them anyway due to my colleagues experience but that is not to say anyone else should not.
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1. Don't send them more than 30k Euro. They are safe. 2. I have never had any problems with Saxo, and I can't find a better broker. 3. If anyone has been cheated by Saxo, contact the Danish police, and they will help you to get your money back.
 
Quote from Baruch:

. . . If anyone has been cheated by Saxo, contact the Danish police, and they will help you to get your money back. [/B]
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When we were cheated by Saxo, I and may partners contacted the Danish government financial regulator that Saxo itself says it is regulated by. The regulator replied that it could not take our complaint and would not and could not tell us ANYTHING (we were Saxo customers, mind you) about Saxo.

One purpose of my posts on this board is to caution others that, based on my experience, they will be out of luck if Saxo cheats them. Your latest reply (quoted above) and your earlier reply about contacting the Copenhagen police are extremely impractical (and more than a little naive). If the Danish government’s own financial services regulator will not or cannot help a Saxo customer, how can a customer with a complaint expect help from the local police, assuming a customer from outside of Denmark (like me) has the means and resources to avail himself of the local police? It’s a little far fetched, don’t you think?

Don't get me wrong: I'd love a trip to Copenhagen, a beautiful city in a wonderful country. Take in the sights and maybe run into some Saxo dealer living the high, high life with my money. He could buy me a beer.
 
Quote from Ivanovich:

Chood, not disputing what you say, just trying to get more specifics. I was just about to make the switch when I saw your comments, and would really like to know more about how they cheated you. Please either post here (as others would no doubt love to hear more) or PM me at your convenience.

Thank you in advance,

-Ivan
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In reply to Ivan, above, I referred him to my brief description earlier this thread of my bad experience with the FX dealer I traded with, Saxo Bank. His question deserves a more thorough response.

Here's what occurred: I and my partners carefully read the Saxo customer trading agreement and tested the Saxo platform before opening a FX trading account. We identified areas of concern and were told in reply both by our Saxo sales rep and the account manager later assigned to us that the problems that concerned us would not materialize. In particular, we asked for assurance, and received it, that Saxo would not price discriminate against our positions and orders. The customer trading agreement -- in very fine print mind you -- allows Saxo to price currency pairs differently for different customers. That's a free pass for manipulation against the customer, and we knew that going in. However, to repeat, Saxo assured us that it never actually price discriminated against individual customer positions and orders and that the prices streamed to the Saxo Trader (the platform) were the same for all customers and would be reliable for trading.

None of these promises and assurances were honored. When our profitable limit orders were breached by prices streamed to the platform, Saxo intervened against the orders and refused to honor them. It replied that the breaching prices were mistakes ("misquotes"), yet it never corrected its own charts to correct the so-called misquotes. It hardly could if it was stopping out at those prices other customers in positions opposite our side of the currency pair. In short, it collected from the losers (the stop losses) and welshed on the winners (our limit orders). And, by the way, our own stop orders always were filled instantly, which is to be expected since Saxo, as the house, profited from every stop.

These are the reasons why I know (not guess) that the FX dealer I traded with is dishonest.
 
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