I don't know exactly what Kerry said about American atrocities and rapes, but I know some veterans who have essentailly corroborated this type of charge. I know a vet who I worked with during college who siad he had manned a machine gun on a helicopter and told me he fired bursts into groups of Vietnamese civilians, and and he giggled when he recounted his tales.
Sailors Say Kerry Unfit to be CinC
- Thread starter AAAintheBeltway
- Start date
Very clever but total BS. You know as well as I do that he flew a dangerous fighter plane that killed dozens of pilots in accidents. There is absolutely no doubt that he served, that he went through the training and that he did what he was asked to do.
Magna
Administrator
Somehow I knew Clinton would be brought into this discussion (imagine my surprise...) Anyway, yes Kerry has flip-flopped on this over the years, as Bush has been known to flip-flop once or twice or thrice. And of course Bush didn't make an issue of his personal military experience because there was no active duty involved and it would have drawn unfavorable attention to his method of entry into the Texas Air Guard and his probable 1-year AWOL. As to the value of military experience, while this standard will never be implemented, I believe that you don't get to be Commander-In-Chief of all the Armed Forces unless you've served some active duty time, preferably in a warzone. Whether you're a hawk or a peacenik at least you will have rubbed shoulders with many of the people that you will be sending to do battle and possibly die. By that standard neither Clinton nor Reagan (nor Bush II) should have been President, and I'd much prefer a Colin Powell, someone with experience in that very critical area. But I digress....
I think the bottom line on Kerry's war service and his antiwar activities is one of judgment versus opportunism. Was it good judgment to go before congress and state definitively that our soldiers were engaged routinely in war crimes, when Kerry later admitted he had no first hand knowledge of such? Was it good judgment to do that when troops were still under fire, when such testimony encouraged our enemy to prolong the war and gave thme a weapon to abuse our POW's with? Was it right for this highly privileged Yalie who hobnobbed with the Kennedies to amke a spectacle of throwing "his" medals away, thereby devaluing the service of all who were awarded medals and for whom they did mean something?
He was lauded by the media, I think there was a gushing 60 Minutes profile, he had the famous Dick Cavett faceoff with O'Neill, he ultimately became a Senator. At the same time, tens of thousand of vets, most them draftees, came home to taunts of "babykiller' and were spat on in airports by sanctimonious college kids who had avoided service.
And people wonder why those who served with him despise him?
He was lauded by the media, I think there was a gushing 60 Minutes profile, he had the famous Dick Cavett faceoff with O'Neill, he ultimately became a Senator. At the same time, tens of thousand of vets, most them draftees, came home to taunts of "babykiller' and were spat on in airports by sanctimonious college kids who had avoided service.
And people wonder why those who served with him despise him?
This is 100% false. Come on ART, I expect you to check your facts a little better before posting them. Several people who served with Bush were interviewed on both Fox News and CNN.
Magna
Administrator
I find it fascinating that at every chance you get you totally dismiss Kerry's wartime record, the 3 Purple Hearts and the 1 Silver Star, and the fact that he didn't complete a full tour in Nam (military policy at the time permitted you to choose after receiving a certain number of medals and he took them up on it for an early release). Then you make the leap to show what a warrior Bush was by flying a training jet while in the National Guard. Excuse me, not just a training jet but a dangerous fighting plane. Excuse me, but not just a dangerous fighting plance but one that killed dozens of pilots in accidents. You probably did extensive research to determine that these dozens of deaths occurred by National Guard pilots and not test pilots while the planes were being developed? Hmmm, I better check back but I don't believe you referenced the thousands of men who died on river boats in Vietnam while discussing Kerry's service. Anyway, I agree that there is no doubt Bush served in the National Guard, that he went through the training, but I'm not so sure he did all that he was asked to do as there are many AWOL questions still lingering. And I'm sorry if I sound like a Kerry defender because I really don't like the man, but sometimes the crap that flies around here is too much to take without some sort of challenge.
That's a specious argument.
If 50% of the people Kerry served with were against him, I could see a case for writing it off as ideological.
But 90%? Something is amiss.
Regardless of who served where and did what, Kerry brought this upon himself. He has pretty much succeeded in turning his military service from an asset into a liability, thanks to a pattern of deliberate overexposure and opportunism.
As I recall he flew the F-104, a supersonic interceptor that was known as the "Widowmaker." I read an article by another guy who was an Air Guard pilot flying the same equipment at that time and that is where I got the quote regarding deaths. While he also flew "training jets" I don't think anyone would say the 104 fell into that category.
This is not about ranking or comparing bravery. I'm sure Kerry was in some very dangerous situations and could have easily been killed, as many others were. Instead, I am just trying to inject some reality into the constant claims that Bush was some National Guard slacker hanging around the armory drinking coffee while brave men faced death. Anyone who knows anything about military aircraft will tell you the 104 was one of the most evil planes we ever had, and that plenty of good pilots put a hole in the ground in one of them.
AAA, I would loooooooooooove to see some of these trash talkers get into an F-104 or any supersonic jet for that matter. I take it a lot of guys on ET have never tried to get into OTC (Officer Training School) to become a pilot. I have. And let me tell you. It's easier to get into MIT.
Seriously the odds of ever getting supersonic training in any of the military branches is really reserved for the elite of the elite and for good reason. It's one of the hardest things you can do in the military. The fact that so many here on ET think that this was an easy task for Bush to accomplish is laughable and only tells us that they have no clue what they are talking about. Seriously, if you have kids thinking of going to college, tell them to apply for flight school in the military and see how easy it is. You people need to get a grip on reality.
AAA,
To paraphrase your response from about a year ago in regards to the quotation in my signature, who cares what a bunch of high school educated grunts think about Kerry?
I don't love Kerry either, but who could fuck things up any worse than Bush?
It wouldn't surprise me if some affiliate of the Iran Contra Klan bribed those assholes to sign the letter...
I mean, it blows my mind and the minds of most veterans that anyone could not want to get rid of dumb and dumbya.
To paraphrase your response from about a year ago in regards to the quotation in my signature, who cares what a bunch of high school educated grunts think about Kerry?
I don't love Kerry either, but who could fuck things up any worse than Bush?
It wouldn't surprise me if some affiliate of the Iran Contra Klan bribed those assholes to sign the letter...
I mean, it blows my mind and the minds of most veterans that anyone could not want to get rid of dumb and dumbya.