Saddam Offered Exile, But Neo-Cons Unleashed Carnage Anyway

Quote from piezoe:

Let's put this in context: "O.K. so i made a bad entry, screwed up and got caught on the wrong side of the market (history). But i'm already one trillion down, i can't afford to get out now. I've got to double down (the "surge") and hope the market (2000 years of history) turns before i'm wiped out."
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The problem with so many "traders" is that they think all of life and its problems have an anology in the markets. There are some, maybe a lot..but this is not one of them.

Here is how it goes. We did fuck up going into Iraq, there was really very little doubt about it among thinking folks when it was done, and there is none at all now. However, if you leave now first of all we confirm to al-Qada that we can be beaten and it WILL encourage further attacks. They are right now distracted "over there" because it is the easiest place to attack and kill Americans. Good, keep them there. Call me evil and yell and scream that I don't care about Iraqi's, the truth is I don't care about an Iraqi as much as I care about my own friends and family.

Second, if we leave now, a formerly stable country will EXPLODE into secular civil war and we will have directly caused it. We screwed Iraq up, we unleashed the Sunni/Shiite civil war that is going on, and we have an obligation to keep a cap on it. And, if we don't fullfill that obligation a few things will happen. First people will be up in arms about all the terrible things in Iraq. Iraq will make Darfor look like a day on Siesta Key Beach. Second, the Sunni's in Saudi Arabia, the UAE etc etc etc will see that their "brother" Sunni's are being slaughtered like madness by the Shia and they will intervene to help them. Of course Iran will not be able to tollerate this, they want Iraq to be in their sphere of influance so they will come in to support their "brothers" the Shia and then you will have a really big f'n mess.

I want us out of Iraq as soon as possible. I don't want my brother to die, but I also firmly believe that once you enter into a war you fight to win and you win. America, the most powerful nation on earth (and I'm not just talking about our milatary power here too.we have smart diplomates who can work things out...often they have to use the stick of the milatary, but they can) has no excuse to lose in Iraq. We have made a ton of mistakes. If you want to make a trading analogy a better one would be to look at the mistakes you have made that have brought you to the point your @ and correct them one by one. Doing so is the path to success. Just my opinion, but as someone pointed out earlier I'm just a white guy from Iowa :) (Plus its possible that cancer is eating my brain..j/k on this one as i know he was too..and if anyone cares I have been over the last month and a half or so been feeling a ton better 80/90% of the time)

Brandon
 
Brandon, i respect your opinion but, in the main disagree.

I am of the opinion that when one has made a very bad error in judgment, the best course is to admit it, apologize, and make the appropriate changes. It is foolish to try and save face, you will not fool anyone, and you will lose respect in the process.

During the Bush administration, which i hope history to show as our darkest hour, with none subsequent more dark still,

1. We attacked without provocation a sovereign nation.

2. We caused their leader to be killed, the one person, though horrible, who was able to keep their nation from falling into civil conflict.

3. We fomented a civil war among people who had previously tolerated each other.

3. We killed thousands, but much worse: we maimed many more.

4. We lied, and we tortured. We ignored the rule of law, and we denied many basic human rights.

5. We created a new generation of terrorists.

5. We took away our citizens freedoms.

5. We wasted our youth and resources.

6. We devalued our currency, cheated our creditors, and started the nation on the path to ethical and financial bankruptcy.

These are errors from which there is no saving of face.

The healing, and the rebuilding of our reputation as an ethical nation will begin the day we bring our last troop home.
 
Quote from piezoe:

Brandon, i respect your opinion but, in the main disagree.

I am of the opinion that when one has made a very bad error in judgment, the best course is to admit it, apologize, and make the appropriate changes. It is foolish to try and save face, you will not fool anyone, and you will lose respect in the process.

During the Bush administration, which i hope history to show as our darkest hour, with none subsequent more dark still,

1. We attacked without provocation a sovereign nation.

2. We caused their leader to be killed, the one person, though horrible, who was able to keep their nation from falling into civil conflict.

3. We fomented a civil war among people who had previously tolerated each other.

3. We killed thousands, but much worse: we maimed many more.

4. We lied, and we tortured. We ignored the rule of law, and we denied many basic human rights.

5. We created a new generation of terrorists.

5. We took away our citizens freedoms.

5. We wasted our youth and resources.

6. We devalued our currency, cheated our creditors, and started the nation on the path to ethical and financial bankruptcy.

These are errors from which there is no saving of face.

The healing, and the rebuilding of our reputation as an ethical nation will begin the day we bring our last troop home.
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I agree with a lot of what you said, but most people also understand that when we leave it will get a lot worse. Don't you think a person/country has a responsibility to pick up after themselves? The solution is certainly much less than entirely a milatary one, but for now the political process also needs a milatary "backup" to be effective. I think that we created a huge mess for the Iraqi people, as you pointed out in your post. WE CAUSED IT, that is to say, but for us they not be killing each other left and right and the country would still be being held together by Saddam. We need to stay there until we can figure something out to put it back together again, or partition in it such a way that the people are happy, and they are not slaughtering each other. Thats why I think we should stay, its about winning, but its also about doing what is right. Anyway, thank you for your opinion/post and also presenting it in a respectful manner even when you didnt agree with me. It would be wonderful if all ET debates could go like this.

Brandon
 
from Brandonf...
Don't you think a person/country has a responsibility to pick up after themselves?
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That is an important question, and one that gives me pause. Perhaps that is the one best justification for staying.

I will think about it.
 
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