Ryan Jones - the final frontier in snakeoil!!

Seminars are not substitute for people continuing to learn by themselves. If they don't have any auto-learning capacity a seminar will be as useless as books. Personnaly I don't like seminars but I won't prevent people to go at seminars under the pretext that I don't like them: it depends on the kind of guys. Some are not receptive to books and more to seminars others like me prefers books - this is general I hate philosophical films I only go to cinema for entertainment whereas I enjoy reading some philosophical books.

What I advise is to read some books BEFORE attending any seminar. A seminar if it is only under a conference form is rather entertainment and so useless. If it is a real educative stuffs with carefull prepared learning materials then it can be usefull. And you can't expect that to be free since there are costs as in anything. I gave some Programming seminars I know how much it costs to prepare such stuffs, in fact as a small firm it's impossible to cover the cost so that I need to treat with bigger firms. It must be the same thing for any other area.


Quote from 50 cent:

The thing is, that people don't even look for gurus to teach them to trade. Rather, they look for gurus because they don't want to THINK. They want the guru to do the thinking for them.

If you have the patience and courage to learn to trade by yourself, rather than by another person, it will pay off ten times fold.

I constantly review educational material, and learn what I see fit from it. Books don't cost much and there is tons of free stuff on the Web, and that's all you need. How do I know which educational stuff is good and which isn't? By researching the history and reputation of the guru? NO. So how do I know? Simple. I use my BRAIN. I love my brain.

If you substitute your brain for a guru, it's going to be a really painful head surgery. Trust me, I've been there, and I've also seen it first hand on a countless number of traders. You don't want to be in their shoes when they wake up from the illusion. I've seen it a thousand times.

Cheers
50
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The problem is that every dream merchants pretend not to be dream merchants and to prove that they are not pointed towards others :D. Good example is turtletrader.com: he has a huge list of other vendores he pretend are scam vendors whereas he is the first in the category.

Read also marketing newsletter: the first lines are always to ensure the reader that it is not holy grail - so that the guy won't feel stupid.

Quote from 007Arb:

>>>>...The exception is "guru" Gary Smith. He's the "average Joe" trader that has done pretty well for himself. Very honest.<<<<<

Thanks for the compliment but definitely not a guru, not even close. Just a small time trader who made good. Someday I should revise something I posted elsewhere a few years back titled Crooks, Con Men, and Charlatans - Lying for a Living. Better yet, all one has to do is read the archives of the enforcement actions at the CFTC web site, although they have barely made a dent in uncovering the fraud that goes on in Vendorland.

It's funny, I almost posted to this thread the other day. There is big money in Vendorville. Not writing books (unless you self publish) but pandering expensive courses, tutorials, systems, etc. promising easy wealth. I knew someone years ago (and he was actually a legitimate trader, a rarity in Vendorville) who grossed $1,000,000 in less than two years marketing trading videos. Some of the less legitimate ones have made as much. One well known vendor (and who has made millions) fabricated his entire trading background to create a trading persona in order to market an assortment of trading related products.

I don't condone the tactics of the Dream Merchants but they won't go away as long as the trading public continues to believe as true that which they want to be true, i.e. that trading can be made easy and there are shortcuts to trading success if you sign on with some self proclaimed guru purporting to have all the answers for a fee of thousands of dollars.
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Excellent thread... thanks 50 cent! :)

I have to admit that I am still one of Ryan's fans.

I like his book, although I don't really believe that FR is his own idea - I am aware of another trader/teacher who had published notes with FR way before Ryan did. Still both Ryan's lucid writing and the FR methodology have proved beneficial to my mm practices.

I have bought and used several of Ryan's techniques and have made some money from doing so, although not nearly as much as he was "promising." Maybe that was my fault, but DD of 50% makes me quit the system, any system, no matter what. Especially if I had gone into it based on data that showed max DD of 22% over the previous several years. Oh well, live and learn, some of his other techniques more that paid for that mistake.

A couple of years ago, Ryan sold an S&P emini daytrading technique of his (called Extreme) to a number of about 50 traders (including myself) with the promise that the technique would be traded by a broker and followed by everybody via a special chatroom he was setting up. Ryan put $50,000 in that account and at the end of a given period (3 months?) we would all share the profits.

Now, over the next 2-3 weeks, the account had dipped by $15,000, and everybody was depressed. Ryan and his team didn't even bat an eye: they experimented a little and altered one of the rules, and they also tighetened the trigger parameter of another rule. Slowly but surely the account recovered (despite the fact that the market had deteriorated and that the broker was not too too experienced as a trader either) and finally each participant received $150 as their share of the profits. Not much, but, hey, it was positive. Plus, the new and improved technique, was much better than the old one.

What I learned from this is that although Ryan doesn't know everything, (who, other than me, does? :) ) he does know how to trade and he can (and is willing to work hard and) fix problems with his methods. Not a bad trait for a guru. Why had he not "tested out" the problem before this mishap? Don't know, maybe he was too busy, maybe we were his testing buddies.

Is his marketing rhetoric on the superlative side? Definitely... but I make a living out of trading, not from selling stuff and cannot judge him. When I was scapling volatile stocks, I too was doing all sorts of things to play the game and attempt to confuse the other players on the LII screen. I am not innocent either. If you are shopping for knowledge, it's up to you to screen the stuff you are considering, don't blame the vendors for exaggerating a little (or a lot.)

I did receive the "ads" for the guru training, along with a couple of personalized emails and a phonecall, but decided not to buy. Not that I think it's all beneath me, but, not being as young as I used to be, the lotus posture is a bit difficult for me now, and that burning incense makes me choke :)
 
Yannis why don't you come up with a method of your own, instead of being a follower of a dubious guru?

I mean, don't you yourself also can trade, and overcome your mistakes, just like ryan jones does? what do you need him for? why invest your money in him and in his methods, instead of in yourself?
 
ES - thanks :)

50 cent: good point. I have been trading for a few years and am doing fine, but, whenever things turn a bit hectic, many of us tend to want to "throw money at the problem" and buy systems, seminars etc. Btw, techniques like Extreme are open and seeing it being developed and traded and gradually perfected educates you a lot wrt what's working in trading, especially the mechanical kind. Ryan is fundamentally a teacher, and that's great. Maybe one of these days I'll take an offer extended to me and market something I have developed to other traders, although, for the money involved, I'd rather just trade. At any rate, some traders feel like a "@student" and love to learn all the time. About 5% of my earnings go to feeding this "habit." I know others too who have the same "problem" although, for the most part, we have good trading expertise and methods. Oh well, such is life, just don't tell my wife :)
 
Quote from 50 cent:

I just received this email from www.smarttrading.com, signed by Ryan Jones. He has a unique offer - he doesn't even want to teach me to trade, he takes the next step to directly teach me how to be a GURU!!
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Before someone else beats me to it... :-)

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
 
Those who can do, do, and some also teach for the extra income.

As we all know, trading doesn't always bring consistent and steady profit.

I see many actors pushing products. I see Michael Jordan pushing nike. Extra income.
 
Well Yes and No,

Michael Jordons "Extra Income" is his main source of income.

Michael B.


Quote from vleaps:

Those who can do, do, and some also teach for the extra income.

As we all know, trading doesn't always bring consistent and steady profit.

I see many actors pushing products. I see Michael Jordan pushing nike. Extra income.
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