Russian Hostage Resolution

The terrorist attack on the theater was extremely unfortunate. Putin has rightly called the people who committed this act of terror 'scum'. Indeed the scum have diverted attention from the root cause of the Chechnyan issue, which has led to this terrorism.

The question is now how Russia moves forward. Chechnya is, undisputedly, Russia's Vietnam. The Chechnyan inhabitants are a battle hardened group, who will use any method to defend what they perceive to be their territorial integrity.

Perhaps, and in the first instance, a mid-way house can be found for the issue of Chechnya i.e. a zone of autonomy run by local Chechnyans but within the borders of Russia. Should this work in the interim, then further peaceful moves to independence could gradually be negotiated. Measures to ensure a smooth progression to Chechnyan independence could include negotiated resource concessions for Russian corporations operating within Chechnya. Guarantees should also be given about the pipeline traversing through Chechnya.

I remain hopeful for Russia and remain positive about the direction that she will ultimately take vis-a-vis Chechnya. Its a pointless war, whose issues can be solved by peaceful negotiations, if both sides would simply gather around a table.
 
I think using gas was the correct solution in this situation. I am critical of the fact that the Russian soldiers did not have enough antidotes for the victims and there were not enough support personnel to help take care of the knocked out people. Many of the victims died after they were pulled out and choked on their own vomit and tongues. There were photos of unconscious people slumped on chairs in awkward positions with their air passages blocked. The Russians were just not prepared for the large number of gas victims. To make matters worse, alot of the soldiers were left in the dark with regard to the type of gas used and were unable to treat people accordingly. In my armchair quarterback opinion, the post-op planning could have been handled much better to minimize casualties. 100+ casualties AFTER the operation ended is outrageous.
 
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You of course aware that Russians are the major population of Crimea? If you don't believe me - read it here http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html

As of year 1989
Russians 1,629,542
Ukrainians 625,919

You want to kick 1.6 Mil people out? People whos predecessors fought and died for this land?
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Come on man, you know what I meant, don't tweak what I said just to look better. I meant we would kick your military presence out of there. Those statistics don't mean anything. Yes, I am fully aware of the Russian majority there, but just b/c there are more and more Cubans in Florida, doesn't mean it should become Cuban territory.
You said that a moronic leader gave it away? And, now you want it back??? Try getting back Alaska by parking your fleet there! What? Not so powerful anymore? I thought so.

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Well, you just said it. Geez, man, at least do some research before trying to make such ridiculos statements. There was NO Ukrainians 1000 years ago. Here, I found it for you, maybe you'll learn something about your motherland - http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/classes/pritsak.html

Prince Vladimir, the first saint of the Russian church, caused his people to be baptized (988), and Kiev became the seat of the first Christian church, of the first Christian school, and of the first library in Russia. For three hundred and seventy-six years it was an independent Russian city; http://29.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KI/KIEV.htm
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Again, man, you know quite well what I meant. Yes, those people might be referred to as Russian on the site you mention, but do you really think they were? By saying they originated from Ukrainians I meant the people who lived there. I don't think you'd argue that Ukrainian language/roots etc are not closer to Kievan Rus than yours.
The point I was trying to make is that for Russia and Chechnya, it seems to be a case of "it all started when he hit me back."
No need to be throwing insults around. I was joking, dude. But you are so touchy-feely when it comes to your national pride/face, aren't you? And yes, I am tired of arguing with Russians in a civilized manner. I have tried that on many occasions and it just didn't seem to do the trick.
 
Originally posted by vladiator


Come on man, you know what I meant, don't tweak what I said just to look better. I meant we would kick your military presence out of there. Those statistics don't mean anything. Yes, I am fully aware of the Russian majority there, but just b/c there are more and more Cubans in Florida, doesn't mean it should become Cuban territory.
You said that a moronic leader gave it away? And, now you want it back??? Try getting back Alaska by parking your fleet there! What? Not so powerful anymore? I thought so.

Hmm, just point where I said that Russia was going to take Crimea back? It's sad that Crimea is Ukrainian territory now but nobody is taking any action to get it back. And what would you say if the majority of Crimeans decides to get independence for Crimea? Would you let them go without fighting?



Again, man, you know quite well what I meant. Yes, those people might be referred to as Russian on the site you mention, but do you really think they were? By saying they originated from Ukrainians I meant the people who lived there. I don't think you'd argue that Ukrainian language/roots etc are not closer to Kievan Rus than yours.

Don't say that russians originated from ukrainians then because it's just a ridiculous statement.


The point I was trying to make is that for Russia and Chechnya, it seems to be a case of "it all started when he hit me back."

I've already expressed my points of view on this. Whoever comes to our land with a sword will die of a sword.

No need to be throwing insults around. I was joking, dude. But you are so touchy-feely when it comes to your national pride/face, aren't you? And yes, I am tired of arguing with Russians in a civilized manner. I have tried that on many occasions and it just didn't seem to do the trick.

Ha-ha, look who's talking now. You're the one who started on this "kicking russian butt ". No wonder you couldn't explain your position in a civilized manner to your previous opponents.
You hate russians just like many ukrainians, admit it. Your country is nothing without the Big brother. Never was, never will be. And this is why you hate us.
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Originally posted by machine
Originally posted by vladiator


Ha-ha, look who's talking now. You're the one who started on this "kicking russian butt ". No wonder you couldn't explain your position in a civilized manner to your previous opponents.
You hate russians just like many ukrainians, admit it. Your country is nothing without the Big brother. Never was, never will be. And this is why you hate us.
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???? Previuos opponents? What are you raving about?
I don't hate you. I loathe you. B/c the majority of Russians take credit for all the USSR had accomplished and b/c of your pervasive superiority complex. Russian people here in the US here me speak Russian and ask: "What part of Russia are you from?" I tell them I'm from Ukraine and they faces just twist...

Nothing without "big brother." LMAO! Now you are pathetic. That's the snobby superiority complex I'm talking about. Dude, go to some cities in Ukraine and in Russia and see the difference. At first, after the union collapsed, you did lead economically b/c all the former USSR's links with the worled switched to Russia and we had to start from scratch. Now our economy is doing much better. You have been pretty much at the same spot ever since the fabled default. You may get as nationalistic as you want, but it looks like you've been in Canada for too long. Outside of Moscow, Russia in a century back economically. Even the great city of St.Petersburg which I had the pleasure of visiting last May is far from it's former self and looks very dirty and aweful compared to big cities in Ukraine.
Ukraine on the other hand, is developing quite OK without any "brotherly" help. Ever since we joined the European Council (about 4 or 5 years ago, if my memory serves me right), we didn't really count on you in any way. Too bad they didn't try to join the NATO :cool:
Will see what the differences will be in the future. And I sure would be interested to see where Russia would be now had it not been for the oil you have....
You never were a "Big Brother". A "Big Bully" maybe. Not that big though. The truth is you only were big and strong when you were part of the USSR. Now the only reason you are still looked at as "big" by the rest of the world is the nukes (which Ukraine voluntarily gave up.)
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Originally posted by aphexcoil
I guarantee you that 70% of Americans don't even know why there is currently a conflict between Russia and Chechnia. 80%+ Americans couldn't even locate Chechnia on a map without some serious searching. 90% or more of Americans could probably care less about the entire situation except for that rare 5 second moment when Ted puts down the morning paper and goes, "Hmm, honey, looks like their gas killed their own guys," and then off to work.

As far as I'm concerned, the reason why anyone died was not because of the gas but because armed people took over that theater in the first place.

That is terrorism.

Terrorism exists for a reason. People don't just crash planes into a building on a whim, nor do they strap themselves with high-yield explosives just to get 20k wired to their family's bank account.

Is terrorism wrong? What side of the fence are you on? Has your mother and daughter been raped by soldiers lately? If so, you might be able to justify slapping explosives onto your chest and going into a theater in Russia and sending a strong message.

Or perhaps you're just that guy that has nothing to do with politics and decided to take your wife out on a nice night, only to have a bullet placed in her skull because someone *ELSE* was trying to send a message.

This world is filled with FUBAR situations, and depending on what motivates you and where your interests lie, you may either call it terrorism, retaliation, self-defense, etc.

The real tragedy lies in the fact that innocent people who have nothing to do with either side suddenly become pawns in another side's struggle.

They caught the sniper in DC, but they will never catch or capture that "spark" that could ignite in many of us at any time given the right situations.
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Very good post... Terrorism is the act of the poor people. When you cannot fight with the same weapons then you use terrorism. This is the last ressort. Nobody wants to die But sometimes, when you lose many people life means nothing to you...

As I said it before. When the Bristish and the French attacked German interests by bombing and perpetrating terrorist acts they were called terrorists by the Nazis. Funny isnt it. Take the same French who called Algerian terrorists whereas Algerian were fighting for the liberation of their own country.

This is of course debatable and this cannot justify the killings of innocent people. But the thing is why are there terrorists acts. It is important to know the roots of the problem.
 
Excellent posts by both Aphie and Traderfut2000... it's important to understand the roots of terror and to appreciate that Russia has committed just as much terror against the Chechnyans as the Chechnyans have committed against Russia... as per my previous post, I hope that Russia takes the diplomatic route in its Chechnya policy, and does not model itself on the maniacal route that epitomizes US foreign policy... admittedly, I have more confidence in President Putin (at least he has a functioning brain) than I have in Baby Bush...
 
Some will say that there were too many casualties, but how the hell do they know ? We aren't experts on hostage situations here. The fact that most hostages survived while the terrorists were killed is what matters.
 
There is no justification for terrorism, ever, anywhere. Terrorism is evil, there has never been a just cause that ever used terrorism. There are revolutionaries, dissidents, etc. that can be respected but not terrorists. When the chechens were fighting in battles, it was possible to have some respect for them, but not now. Now they have descended to the level of animals and they are asking for their own total destruction. Anything the russians do from now on is pure self defense with no shame.

Pray for the innocent victims and move on.
 
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