Russian Hostage Resolution

Originally posted by aphexcoil
I guarantee you that 70% of Americans don't even know why there is currently a conflict between Russia and Chechnia.
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I don't want to bore you to death but here's a little bit of russian-chechens relations:

"Recognized as a distinct people since the 17th cent., the Chechens were the most active opponents of Russia's conquest (1818–1917) of the Caucasus. They fought bitterly during an unsuccessful 1850s rebellion led by Imam Shamyl. The Bolsheviks seized the region in 1918 but were dislodged in 1919 by counterrevolutionary forces under Gen. A. I. Denikin.

After Soviet rule was reestablished, the area was included in 1921 in the Mountain People's Republic. The Chechen Autonomous Region was created in 1922, and in 1934 it became part of the Chechen-Ingush Region, made a republic in 1936. After Chechen and Ingush units collaborated with the invading Germans during World War II, many residents were deported (1944) to Central Asia. Deportees were repatriated in 1956, and the republic was reestablished in 1957.

In 1991, as the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Chechen-dominated parliament of the republic declared independence as the Republic of Ichkeria, soon better known as Chechnya. In June, 1992, Russia granted Ingush inhabitants their own republic (Ingushetia) in the western fifth of the territory.

Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994, as Russian troops arrived to crush the separatist movement. Grozny was devastated in the fighting, and tens of thousands died. Russian forces regained control of many areas in 1995, but separatist guerrillas controlled much of the mountainous south and committed spectacular terrorist actions in other parts of Russia. Fighting continued through 1996, when Dudayev was killed and succeeded by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. The Russians withdrew, essentially admitting defeat, following a cease-fire that left Chechnya with de facto autonomy.

Aslan Maskhadov, chief of staff of the Chechen forces, was elected president early in 1997 but appeared to have little control over the republic. In 1999, Islamic law was established. Terrorism, including a series of bombings in Moscow, erupted again, and after Islamic militants invaded neighboring Dagestan from Chechnya, Russian forces bombed and invaded Chechnya."

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright © 1994, 2000, Columbia University Press.

Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0857260.html

Now you can judge for yourself. This is not even a Russian source but reputable American one.
 
Originally posted by aphexcoil
I guarantee you that 70% of Americans don't even know why there is currently a conflict between Russia and Chechnia. 80%+ Americans couldn't even locate Chechnia on a map without some serious searching. 90% or more of Americans could probably care less about the entire situation except for that rare 5 second moment when Ted puts down the morning paper and goes, "Hmm, honey, looks like their gas killed their own guys," and then off to work.

As far as I'm concerned, the reason why anyone died was not because of the gas but because armed people took over that theater in the first place.

That is terrorism.

Terrorism exists for a reason. People don't just crash planes into a building on a whim, nor do they strap themselves with high-yield explosives just to get 20k wired to their family's bank account.

Is terrorism wrong? What side of the fence are you on? Has your mother and daughter been raped by soldiers lately? If so, you might be able to justify slapping explosives onto your chest and going into a theater in Russia and sending a strong message.

Or perhaps you're just that guy that has nothing to do with politics and decided to take your wife out on a nice night, only to have a bullet placed in her skull because someone *ELSE* was trying to send a message.

This world is filled with FUBAR situations, and depending on what motivates you and where your interests lie, you may either call it terrorism, retaliation, self-defense, etc.

The real tragedy lies in the fact that innocent people who have nothing to do with either side suddenly become pawns in another side's struggle.

They caught the sniper in DC, but they will never catch or capture that "spark" that could ignite in many of us at any time given the right situations.
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You will have to forgive my nephew and his belief that he knows a lot about world affairs and politics.

You see, we played Risk (the game of World domination) frequently when he was a lad, and I let him win to help build his self esteem. He was quite fond of capturing Yatsuka.

Then he moved on to dungeons and dragons, and I heard from Gerty that he is now playing the latest version of Risk 2002, which includes terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

So, please be kind to the poor boy.

Uncle Ernie Coil
 
Originally posted by Aphie's Uncle


You will have to forgive my nephew and his belief that he knows a lot about world affairs and politics.

You see, we played Risk (the game of World domination) frequently when he was a lad, and I let him win to help build his self esteem. He was quite fond of capturing Yatsuka.

Then he moved on to dungeons and dragons, and I heard from Gerty that he is now playing the latest version of Risk 2002, which includes terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

So, please be kind to the poor boy.

Uncle Ernie Coil
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This is now getting too funny because I almost choked to death reading this!! LOL
 
Originally posted by Corso482


Ya, I agree, in theory 3 is the wisest choice. But you cannot implement a Russian withdrawl from Chechnya in the context of terrorist demands. If Russia had pulled out as a result of the hostage situation, then you can imagine the influx of hostage-takings that would follow, not only in Russia but around the world. In any hostage situation the greater good is NOT giving into the hostage-takers demands. What did the terrorists think would happen? They would take the theatre hostage and get everything they ever wanted?

By the way, the gas thing, although it killed some hostages, was a genious move, and the best thing to do in that situation. I thought that the Chechens would inevitably blow the place up because the Russians would inevitably charge in. I never thought of gassing the whole place.
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I agree on all your points. I too thought it would end much worse. And obviously you can't set precedents of giving in to terrorists demands. But in this particular situation, Russia is guilty of having triggered the whole thing and if they did back off, I don't think it would have been such a bad precedent. The means don't justify the end though.
 
Machina, dude, I don't have time to dwell on all the tiny details, but let's just say that there are as many histories as there are historians. I am sure if you, if only just for a second, part with the brainwashed Russian part of yourself and dig a bit deeper, you'd see that you ignited all the mess in there. It's easy to assume that having been a "super-power", whatever, state, you can just go and impose you policies all over neighboring regions. But let's face it, only the US can do it :D. The "G7 and Russia" speech pattern is a joke. And YES, Crimea IS Ukrainian and YES, we WILL kick your Russian butts out of there - I'll just have to go back there some time and run for president....
By the way, you dudes all originate from Ukrainians (Kievan Rus, remember?), so again, if you dig deeper, you'll see that IT IS ours.
It's not about oil, it's about the pipeline??? LOL. It's that the same thing???
 
Originally posted by chasinfla
Raid on Entebbe. In things of this nature, the Israeli's excel.

Was Mr. Putin putting on a camera face?
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You can't compare Raid on Entebbe with what happened in Moscow. In first case terrorists could never expect that israelis would come to Uganda for the hostages, they weren't prepared. They didn't have 2000kg of explosives also. A few grenades, maybe. It was a daring attempt and it worked well but it was completely different situation, uncomparable.

And don't get me started on presidents faces, please.:)
 
Originally posted by vladiator
Machina, dude, I don't have time to dwell on all the tiny details, but let's just say that there are as many histories as there are historians. I am sure if you, if only just for a second, part with the brainwashed Russian part of yourself and dig a bit deeper, you'd see that you ignited all the mess in there. It's easy to assume that having been a "super-power", whatever, state, you can just go and impose you policies all over neighboring regions. But let's face it, only the US can do it :D. The "G7 and Russia" speech pattern is a joke.

Vlad, you're saying that only US could do it...Does it mean that you don't have any feelings towards Yougoslavia, Vietnam, Granada... They also wanted to live the way they chose but US didn't let them do it. Those countries aren't even US's neighbours, what business USA had there? Or are you saying that only the strongest can do whatever they want? If so, I'd agree with you - it's just the human nature and jungle law.

And YES, Crimea IS Ukrainian and YES, we WILL kick your Russian butts out of there - I'll just have to go back there some time and run for president....

You of course aware that Russians are the major population of Crimea? If you don't believe me - read it here http://www.iccrimea.org/population.html

As of year 1989
Russians 1,629,542
Ukrainians 625,919

You want to kick 1.6 Mil people out? People whos predecessors fought and died for this land? I'm sure you'll make a good president, maybe even better one than Saddam

By the way, you dudes all originate from Ukrainians (Kievan Rus, remember?), so again, if you dig deeper, you'll see that IT IS ours.

Well, you just said it. Geez, man, at least do some research before trying to make such ridiculos statements. There was NO Ukrainians 1000 years ago. Here, I found it for you, maybe you'll learn something about your motherland - http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/classes/pritsak.html

Prince Vladimir, the first saint of the Russian church, caused his people to be baptized (988), and Kiev became the seat of the first Christian church, of the first Christian school, and of the first library in Russia. For three hundred and seventy-six years it was an independent Russian city; http://29.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KI/KIEV.htm

It's not about oil, it's about the pipeline??? LOL. It's that the same thing???
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You're just being pathetic. You can't even argue in a civilized manner. All you do is trying to insult me and all Russians in my face. I brought you tons of facts but you keep saying about stupid pipe and kicking Russian butt. What impression about Ukrainians you gonna leave on this board?:confused:
 
I don't know what else the Russians could have done. An analogy could be drawn between that situation and the situation here in the US, where fighter planes had orders to shoot down any rogue planes near metropolitan areas. I didn't hear any complaints about that. Killing a few hundred innocent people on a plane to prevent a greater tragedy on the ground.
 
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