Russia & Ukraine

Cuddles said:
the "dialogue" has long been established by Zelensky. "Leave Ukrainian land, then we'll talk"

The US just lost the SW to Mexico, how many dead before dialogue where Mexico gets to keep the land?
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It looks like peace between Mexico and the US has been achieved. I suppose most anything is possible if we put our minds to it.
 
So Sad.
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Russia Forced To Replace Wagner Fighters After Most 'Units Were Destroyed' By Ukraine
https://www.ibtimes.com/russia-forc...ter-most-units-were-destroyed-ukraine-3672633

Bedraggled Troops Declare ‘Glory to Russia’ in Saddest Video Ever
The video was circulated by propagandists Wednesday as a testament to the Russian spirit—as the death toll reportedly hit at least 60,000.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/bedra...declare-glory-to-russia-in-saddest-video-ever
 
BeautifulStranger said:
Do you believe there is a practical way of ensuring justice will be served? Is there a way of convincing Russia's leaders of turning themselves in for punishment? That would seem a bit naive. Remember, no laws between nations. Even if there were a way of ultimately achieving justice, of what value would it be if there are hundreds of thousands of avoidable deaths if a live let live philosophy was employed?

Putin may privately regret invading Ukraine at this point, but how to exit without overwhelming costs? The excessive burden placed on Germany in WWI lead to WWII, right? Negotiations will be tough, but how about the alternative? Ultimately, to beat a point to death, the participants will need to go to the peace table eventually, anyway.

As far as the idea of Putin remaining a future threat even if peace is achieved in the short term, it is a potent one deserving an answer. Earnest peace talks may give clarity on that point. Understand if the conclusion is Putin will remain a long term threat, the logical course of action would be to escalate in every way possible and commit to taking the initiative, including invasion of Russia and destruction of her military and economic targets. What do you think happens then? What happens to the support of Western political leaders by voters when the war hits their home countries?

It seems neither the hardest or softest options are optimal. An earnest effort as discussing the issues at the peace table will hopefully lay the foundation for la sustainable long term agreement.
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Ok, could you give just a yes or no answer to my question :

Would you agree, that Ukrainians should accept peace treaty from Russia, where Russia stops attacking, yet occupied regions from this conflict and 2014 remains in Russian hands ?
 
Cuddles said:
the "dialogue" has long been established by Zelensky. "Leave Ukrainian land, then we'll talk"

The US just lost the SW to Mexico, how many dead before dialogue where Mexico gets to keep the land?
More...

Oops, I read your post too quickly and didn't get the point. Got it now and you've made a solid point. If we are to be committed to Ukraine, then for fooks sake, let's not do it half-assed like we do most wars. That only invites stagnation, although things may eventually right themselves. Thinking about East and West Germany. North and South Korea. North and South Vietnam. China and Taiwan. Sometimes compromises that don't serve justice are workable, sometimes they are not.

As far as Zelensky not wanting to talk before Russia leaves, that is his prerogative, not necessarily ours. Personally, I don't believe one should ever set conditions for talking. Always go over the issues and find out where agreement is possible. There are many things that have value, both tangible and intangible. Some things are more value to one party than another. Further, we are living in a world where resources are still plentiful. It seems to me there is potentially a solid basis for negotiations. Considering the Russian perspective, why leave the land that was so costly to obtain without an agreement? Surely the Russians would view that as self-weakening their own negotiating position.

I believe Zelensky should consider becoming more receptive to talks without preconditions. It may be the only way to move forward, especially as Ukraine continues to receive more weapons from the West, likely increasing Russian anxiety.
 
BeautifulStranger said:
100,000 dead? 1,000,000 dead? 10,000,000 dead?
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you mean russian "soldiers"? the more, the better - pure and simple.

there is nothing to negotiate at this point. nobody wants to negotiate anyway.

russia can stop this at anytime and go home. then the war will be over.

nobody wants to destroy russia.

but russia (well - the russian mafia "government") wants to destroy ukraine, obviously.

ukraine fights to survive and to be free - this deserves respect and support.
 
Nobert said:
Ok, could you give just a yes or no answer to my question :

Would you agree, that Ukrainians should accept peace treaty from Russia, where Russia stops attacking, yet occupied regions from this conflict and 2014 remains in Russian hands ?
More...

I simply don't have a yes or no answer for your question. I agree that Russia is illegally occupying Crimea and that Ukraine is within its rights to seek the return of Crimea. However, the way to effect the return of Crimea has some practical considerations, it seems.

There is a point at which the cost of Russia retaining or Ukraine obtaining Crimea is more than its worth. The key may be to discuss and discover what those costs may be. From there it may be possible for Russia and Ukraine to reach the same conclusion. I'm almost certain the long term cost of Crimea is much greater than its value for Russia. Hell, this probably can be proven. The competent choose what is in their best interests after considering all the possibilities.

Russia is noteworthy in they are inefficient in utilizing the vast amounts of land they have, partly due to their low population. Perhaps negotiations could address those points and provide a workable alternative than Russia keeping Crimea.

It sounds like there is much to discuss.
 
BeautifulStranger said:
I believe Zelensky should consider becoming more receptive to talks without preconditions.
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really?

why??

and what about putin?

ukraine will get tanks, cruise missiles and fighter jets (yes they will).

and when the job is done, the very last russian soldier will be happy to leave ukraine alive - believe me (and this includes crimea).

what then comes next is the necessary change within russia - wait and see.
 
Atlantic said:
you mean russian "soldiers"? the more, the better - pure and simple.

there is nothing to negotiate at this point. nobody wants to negotiate anyway.

russia can stop this at anytime and go home. then the war will be over.

nobody wants to destroy russia.

but russia (well - the russian mafia "government") wants to destroy ukraine, obviously.

ukraine fights to survive and to be free - this deserves respect and support.
More...

Most people are simply people. They have similar hopes and feel the same things. The loss of life is tragic, whether it is Ukrainian or Russian. We are talking sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers. Survivors of war often lead a miserable life. As such, we should never depersonalize people because it makes it easier to justify continuing war. Continuing a war that continuously adds more victims, including breaking families.

Most of us want to bring justice to the main culprits of the War, Putin and his cronies, but how do we achieve this without substantially increasing the number of victims? At some point, there may be so many victims, that justice is effectively impossible. How many people left will be able to truly enjoy the efforts of those sacrificing? The quality of life of future generations marred by an insistence of justice might become an injustice in of itself?

There is much to consider, but would it not be better for discussions to begin sooner rather than later, given current casualty rates on both sides, strategic considerations notwithstanding?
 
Atlantic said:
really?

why??

and what about putin?

ukraine will get tanks, cruise missiles and fighter jets (yes they will).

and when the job is done, the very last russian soldier will be happy to leave ukraine alive - believe me (and this includes crimea).

what then comes next is the necessary change within russia - wait and see.
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That's all great and then Russians will likely launch a nuke, then NATO responds with a nuke, and then it either goes completely out of control or that's where it ends as in most critical times. You can of course state that Russian's nukes are rusty and will never take off, and how NATO's nukes are faster, more precise, that NATO's nukes will take out Putin's residence whilst he is sitting on his commode, etc. None of this can be guaranteed, it is just your vivid imagination, you probably can't even predict what S&P500 would do tomorrow with any level of accuracy, yet when it comes to how the nuclear stage will play out if it were to happen, you seem to be shining with a high level of proficiency, ya Ok, fanks for the intel bro!
 
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