Russia & Ukraine

UsualName said:
The Russians tried to replicate our attack and conquer of Iraq by using shock and awe in Ukraine. They failed. Anyone who thinks Russia is a match for us or NATO is lying to themselves. I don’t care how far these Russians walked in the snow with tanks pulled by donkeys. Their forces are simply not as elite as ours.

Russia a gas station with nuclear weapons and no friends.
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The Russian show no sign of being able to conduct warfare at night...surprising many

Got to remember that Russia's economy is the same size as Florida's
 
TreeFrogTrader said:
Ukraine is not a NATO member - as overdiscussed- so we do not owe them this or that.

An area though where we - The West- did do the dirty to them was to talk them into giving up their nuclear weapons which was part of their - regardless of how corrupt they are- attempt to be good and eventually embraced by the west.

Now, many well argue, that it is just as well because we don't want those nukes flying around. Okay, but our arse is not huddled down waiting to fight the Ruskies with grandma who also has her pistol out to protect the kids. And of course, Putin might not be attacking them if they still had nukes. Don't know. I don't want Ukraine in Nato. Doesn't mean I want to see either the west of Putin doing the dirty to them.
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Ukraine has only recently fully moved to the west. More on that in a bit but when they had nukes they weren’t stable enough to have them. The goal is to get all of the nukes everywhere and spread democracy. You might remember those values from back in the day.

We owe Ukraine support because they are a small “l” liberal democracy and they are being invaded by a fascist country. We have been winning by spreading western values and how we won in Ukraine is by evangelizing through the success of former Soviet bloc states such as Poland.

The Russian way of life is shit and brutal as the whole world is witnessing now. Removing those nukes brought Ukraine to the west. They will benefit from getting away from Russia. Putin is attacking them because they are firmly western now and even more so after this war.

And this war will weaken Russia and then we will get those nukes and it’s gay pride all the way to China’s borders. And then they’re up next.
 
Mercor said:
The Russian show no sign of being able to conduct warfare at night...surprising many

Got to remember that Russia's economy is the same size as Florida's
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They seem limited and that is a problem for them. They are also nowhere near as disciplined and organized as the western militaries.
 
UsualName said:
Ukraine has only recently fully moved to the west. More on that in a bit but when they had nukes they weren’t stable enough to have them. The goal is to get all of the nukes everywhere and spread democracy. You might remember those values from back in the day.

We owe Ukraine support because they are a small “l” liberal democracy and they are being invaded by a fascist country. We have been winning by spreading western values and how we won in Ukraine is by evangelizing through the success of former Soviet bloc states such as Poland.

The Russian way of life is shit and brutal as the whole world is witnessing now. Removing those nukes brought Ukraine to the west. They will benefit from getting away from Russia. Putin is attacking them because they are firmly western now and even more so after this war.

And this war will weaken Russia and then we will get those nukes and it’s gay pride all the way to China’s borders. And then they’re up next.
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I do not disagree with your recitation of general history and background leading up to Ukraine's disarmament.

But it was not all that loosey goosey. There were actual negotiatons and treaty signings whereby Ukraine was given/was led to believe that there would be strong security protections extended to them by the west. One can argue that we have done that and have to stop short of acting like they are a nato member, which I don;t disagree with. And as always with international law you can always argue that the treaty never even said this or that or meant this or that.

Just saying, either legally or through smooth talking the Ukrainians were led to give up their nukes. Nukes that they probably wish they had today.
 
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