I resent that
Russia & Ukraine
- Thread starter UsualName
- Start date
Ah, yes - the 'Total Clown' ad hominem attack. No factual backups, no detailed analysis, just blather about Russian Totalitarianism. And yet, the Western nations used totalitarian tactics to force experimental injections on people. Sure, sure. whatever you say, man.
Tell you what - let's make a bet. I bet Russia wins this war by end of 2023, holding the Crimea and Donbass and all other territories that have voted to be part of Russia.
I also believe the hideously corrupt Ukrainian government is ended by then, but that is far less certain as there may be a negotiated settlement at some point.
You bet that what? Russia is completely out of Donbass / Crimea by that time frame and Putin is ousted by all those people who hate him? Is that your projected outcome?
For sure - Ukraine did a great offensive in the Kherson. Yeah, they lost about 4-1 men vs Russian losses, but the offensive looked damn good for the photo and news ops. Absolutely. And their troops fought like hell, with great morale. No question. And they won back a decent amount of territory (like 5% of what Russia has gained so far).
The Ukrainians were skilled, determined, and brave. Hats off.
That battle, however, was not the war. It was an excuse for Russia to mobilize - almost all trained vets. Sure, some of the men fled, but not that many. Many of them are eager to fight. They see this as a long-simmering war against the West that is now happening. They feel that the West is trying to destroy Russia altogether and using Ukraine as a proxy because the government is so corrupt and they border Russia. (Lots of reasons).
I'm more interested in Reality than media talking points. I'll listen to or read any analyst who presents solid analysis. NONE of the mainstream analysts I have seen offer anything of the sort. There is one guy in Austria - https://www.youtube.com/c/ÖsterreichsBundesheer - who supports Ukraine and gives pretty good analysis. He's military. It's detailed and it's honest, so I recommend him since you would never listen to Scott Ritter, for example, because Ritter supports Putin / Russia. But he is very detailed and provides a depth of analysis that few have. Because that was his career.
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Putin set out to take Ukraine and then push further into western Europe. Now you help him but arguing that he will "win" if he just takes the Donbass and Crimea.
Putin's other goal was to incorporate Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan into Russia in the current or next year. Not gonna happen. He has not only lost most of Ukraine, and any further advancement into Moldova, Poland, etc. but he has lost any advancement in Central Asia.
In addition he consistently stated, and the Putin bootlickers consistently stated that one of the top goals was dial NATO back. Howz that lookin? Putin fucked that up beyond belief.
In regard to Kherson, yes the Ukrainians lost lots of men. They may have lost 4-2 compared to the Russians but they were outnumbered 8-1. Regular viewers may know that I have always been in favor of cutting off as much of their supply routes- rail, bridge, etc- before going head on into Kherson. Since then, the Ukrainians decided to just run a holding operation there but to go north to Izium and now Liman to keep cutting off supply lines to the south, including Kherson and letting them weaken even futher before going on offense further, and to let more American weapons and missiles continue to arrive. So needless to say, I am 100% in favor of their strategy of how to fight with fewer troops. There are 20,000 Russian troops trapped in Kherson between Ukrainian lines and the river and they weaken more every day and their supply lines get cut more every day. If you and Vlad are feeling peppy about it and peppy about all the new recruits coming to "help," well enjoy the kool-aid while it lasts.
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He did? I never saw that. I remember in the beginning the Russians wanted a negotiated settlement just for the Russian speaking territories of Ukraine be independent. That's my memory, I guess you have another memory one you aren't supporting with evidence.
YOU: " dial NATO back. Howz that lookin?"
Not as bad as you think. The citizens of Europe are pretty unhappy that their leaders are pushing some pretty severe austerity in terms of energy price inflation on them while at the same time funneling massive amounts of budget to Ukraine.
Sure, the NATO leadership is all in on destroying their own countries economically and fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian.
The PEOPLE of those countries are starting to disagree. To wit: Italian elections.
We'll see whether the leaders of these 'free and democratic' nations can override their citizens wishes in a holy act of Orwellian 'democraxie.' STill up in the air, I suppose.
Is that what Vlad said in his announcement of the military "operation" in February or did he rattle on endlessly about how Ukraine was always part of Russian and will be restored and all the Nazis removed. Try listening to your own man for once.
Vlad will settle for the Donbass now for one and one reason only or, rather, two: 1)Ukraine fought back and the Russian army sucks, and 2) the west armed Ukraine.
shit happens if you're sick and stupid and bring a knife to a gun fight
Again: Do you have an actual link for this or just your memory? you could be correct. IDK. I've provided links and text of the initial speeches. They're pretty clear that it is ONLY about creating independence for the regions in question. But surely you must have a better source than Wikipedia.
Money shot from the second speech (declaring the Military Action):
LOOK
HERE:
SEE THIS FOR THE ACTUAL QUOTE FROM PUTIN ------->"Our plans do not include the occupation of Ukrainian territories. We are not going to impose anything on anyone by force. At the same time, we hear that recently in the West there is talk that the documents signed by the Soviet totalitarian regime, securing the outcome of World War II, should no longer be upheld."[11][4]
And he's not 'MY MAN.' I have never expressed much of anything for Putin one way or another. I just think that Ukraine winning this war is a leftist fantasy.
Here is a summary of the first speech, btw, from Wikipedia. Nothing about taking over Ukraine in toto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_concerning_the_events_in_Ukraine
The speech began with Putin stating that "the situation in Donbas has reached a critical, acute stage" and that "Ukraine is not just a neighbouring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space."[2]
The speech then made a number of claims about Ukrainian and Soviet history, including stating that modern Ukraine was created by the Bolsheviks in 1917 as part of a communist appeasement of nationalism of ethnic minorities in the former Russian Empire, specifically blaming Vladimir Lenin for "detaching Ukraine from Russia", that Joseph Stalin had failed to remove "odious and utopian fantasies inspired by the revolution" from the constitution of the Soviet Union, and that these mistakes, as well as the decentralisation and democratisation brought by Mikhail Gorbachev's reforms in the late 1980s, ultimately led to both the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the "collapse of the historical Russia."[3]
Putin then argued that post-Soviet Russia provided assistance to other post-Soviet states, including taking on the entirety of the Soviet Union's sovereign debt. However, Putin claimed that Ukraine continued to claim a share of the Soviet Union's gold reserves and foreign assets, and the Ukrainian government has wished to continue to enjoy privileges associated with close ties to Russia "while remaining free from any obligations," and that Ukraine had used its ties with Russia as a threat to blackmail the West into giving it greater preferences.
Following that, he argued that post-Soviet Ukraine was "infected with the virus of nationalism and corruption," calling the 2014 Revolution of Dignity a coup d'état that was led by Western powers that plunged Ukraine into a civil war. He then said that the Ukrainian government had enacted of laws discriminating against Russian-speaking Ukrainians and said that it was preparing its military for hostilities against Russia, including intending to create nuclear weapons and allowing a build-up of NATO forces on Ukrainian territory. Putin further stated that "Ukraine joining NATO is a direct threat to Russia's security," and that NATO had failed to uphold promises not to expand into Eastern Europe.[4]
He then stated that Ukraine was failing to uphold the Minsk agreements, and, as a result, it was "necessary to take a long overdue decision" to recognise the independence of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic, and that a Treaty of Friendship and Mutual Assistance with the two regions would be signed. He then ended the speech by calling for the Ukrainian government to "immediately stop hostilities," or else "the responsibility for the possible continuation of the bloodshed will lie entirely on the conscience of Ukraine’s ruling regime."[5][6][7]
Here is the follow-up speech summary declaring the Operation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_conducting_a_special_military_operation
The problem is that in the territories adjacent to us – territories that were historically ours, I emphasise – an 'anti-Russia' hostile to us is being created, placed under full external control; [it] is intensively settled by the armed forces of NATO countries and is supplied with the most modern weapons."[4]
Announcement of a "special military operation"
Putin later announced the start of a "special military operation" in the Donbas region, citing Article 51 of the UN Charter, the decision of the Federation Council on the use of Russian troops in Ukraine and agreements with the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR). He said:
"We have been left no other option to protect Russia and our people, but for the one that we will be forced to use today. The situation requires us to take decisive and immediate action. The people's republics of Donbas turned to Russia with a request for help. ... In this regard, in accordance with Article 51 of Part 7 of the UN Charter, with the sanction of the Federation Council of Russia and in pursuance of the treaties of friendship and mutual assistance ratified by the Federal Assembly on 22 February of this year with the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic, I have decided to conduct a special military operation."[5][4]
Putin stated there were no plans to occupy Ukrainian territory and that he supported the right of the peoples of Ukraine to self-determination, saying:
LOOK HERE-----> "Our plans do not include the occupation of Ukrainian territories. We are not going to impose anything on anyone by force. At the same time, we hear that recently in the West there is talk that the documents signed by the Soviet totalitarian regime, securing the outcome of World War II, should no longer be upheld."[11][4]
google is your friend. read his war announcement speech and then come back and tell me that he was just interested in the Donbass. WRONG.
And he "had no plan to occupy Ukraine." Sure, he was just announcing that he was overthrowing the government. This is the same Putin who just week earlier told the world he had no plan to invade Ukraine.
Look. Putin is failing in Ukraine and failing at home. We get that you are trying to earn your potato for the month, so if you need to find some way that Putin is a winner, that's fine. We will find something for you.
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