russia/georgia

[destroyer]

The US not only accepted Israels invasion of Lebanon, they provided huge amounts of weapons and they blocked every single UN resolution condemning Israeli attacks on a neighboring sovereign nation. "But the Hezbollah blabla" you say, yes, the Hezbollah, NOT the Lebanese people nor the Lebanese government, did attack Israel. This is standing in contrast to the Georgia situation where the Georgian government was responsible for the assault on Russian citizens, making the US support of Israels little slaughter even more absurd.

So yes, if I had supported Israel in that situation, while at the same time promised Georgia freedom and support, I would have been in the same situation as the US; no matter what I would have done, people would have seen my hypocrisy.

 

[a_person]

Quote from destroyer:

The US not only accepted Israels invasion of Lebanon, they provided huge amounts of weapons and they blocked every single UN resolution condemning Israeli attacks on a neighboring sovereign nation.

So yes, if I had supported Israel in that situation, while at the same time promised Georgia freedom and support, I would have been in the same situation as the US; no matter what I would have done, people would have seen my hypocrisy.

What the hell are you talking about. The US supported Israel but did not interfere in the fighting, the US supports Georgia and does not interfere in the fighting. Where is the hypocrisy here other than yours, when you stupidly smear a country and then spend weeks trying to weasel out of your idiotic statements.

 

[Gringinho]

Actually,
if you look into what hypocrisy means and how it works - you'd learn that hypocrisy is a function of society and a necessary integral part for the conservation of it.

Sorry, that is just the philosophical part of hypocrisy - as a reminder, or knowledge-hint for anyone interested in philosophy.

 

[Gringinho]

a_person,

here you have something that you can try and be hypocritical about - I'm sure you'll do just fine ...


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html
Earlier Wednesday, Yakobashvili told Haaretz that Israel has joined in the West's betrayal of Georgia. As the official in charge of bringing Abkhazia and South Ossetia back into the fold, Yakobashvili oversaw negotiations with the Russians to end the fighting there. He warned the world that the situation would escalate into war, but the West ignored him.

"They said the Georgians are exaggerating again," he charged.

A former Zionist leader who speaks fluent Hebrew, Yakobashvili credited Israeli defense companies with "enabling us to train our army and giving us the possibility to withstand the Russians," but termed the Israeli government's decision to stop arms exports to his country "a disgrace."

He said the West should have responded by "deploying NATO troops to defend Georgia's vital infrastructure," and that "Israel is betraying us, along with the European countries and the United States."

 

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

a_person,

here you have something that you can try and be hypocritical about - I'm sure you'll do just fine ...


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html
Earlier Wednesday, Yakobashvili told Haaretz that Israel has joined in the West's betrayal of Georgia. As the official in charge of bringing Abkhazia and South Ossetia back into the fold, Yakobashvili oversaw negotiations with the Russians to end the fighting there. He warned the world that the situation would escalate into war, but the West ignored him.

"They said the Georgians are exaggerating again," he charged.

A former Zionist leader who speaks fluent Hebrew, Yakobashvili credited Israeli defense companies with "enabling us to train our army and giving us the possibility to withstand the Russians," but termed the Israeli government's decision to stop arms exports to his country "a disgrace."

He said the West should have responded by "deploying NATO troops to defend Georgia's vital infrastructure," and that "Israel is betraying us, along with the European countries and the United States."

This guy "destructive" was talking about the US, not Israel, he completely failed to back up his accusations and spent days trying to weasel out of them. FWIW Israel should continue their arms exports to Georgia, stopping it is wrong and quite possibly hypocritical indeed. Although I am yet to see a confirmation that a Georgian request was turned down so so far it's just an allegation but I'll be the first to criticize them if it's confirmed.

You on the other hand have spent days bashing Israel for its military cooperation with Georgia and now all of a sudden you are bashing Israel for alleged suspension of this cooperation. You've spent days trying (desperately and clumsily) to justify the actions of the Russians as geopolitically necessary and unavoidable but when it comes to Israel's geopolitical realities and legitimate concerns you are back on your high horse. This is definitely as hypocritical is it gets.

 

[Gringinho]

I am not "bashing Israel for stopping arms exports" to Georgia. I'm just letting you have a chance to show that the biggest hypocrites in this conflict are the US and the commercial defense-industry interests backing Georgia.

You did just fine.


My stance is that I think all this has showed a total lack of respect for the minority population and Georgia's civilians - who lost their lives and property in all this.

Furthermore, my "hypocritical angle" is that it makes EU-Russia relations worse - economically and strategically.

 

[destroyer]

Quote from a_person:
What the hell are you talking about. The US supported Israel but did not interfere in the fighting, the US supports Georgia and does not interfere in the fighting. Where is the hypocrisy here other than yours, when you stupidly smear a country and then spend weeks trying to weasel out of your idiotic statements.

I'm talking about the 2006 Israel/Lebanon war, when Israel invaded the sovereign democratic nation Lebanon, killed more than a thousand civilians and wrecked allot of infrastructure. Yes, Hezbollah did attack first, and yes, Israel had the right to respond to Hezbollah, but the response was extremely disproportional and the true victims was innocent civilians. Similarly, the Georgian government (not some rogue militants like the Hezbollah, mind you) attacked and killed Russian citizens and Russian peace keepers, and everybody agrees the Russians did have the right to respond, to do something to protect its citizens. The problem is not that the Russians responded, the problem is their extreme response.

So, if the US wanted to be consistent and non-hypocritical, they would EITHER allow Israel to do whatever they feel is necessary to protect its citizens, even if it meant slaughtering innocent non-Israelis in the hundreds (as the US indeed did), and react similarly to the Russian response to Georgian aggression (which they are not doing). OR, they would condemn Israel for responding so disproportionately (which they did not), and similarly condemn Russia for also responding disproportionately (which they did).

As for my taking weeks (it is closer to days) to respond, it is because I have a life outside of the internet. Not everybody gets paid while doing this, some of us actually have to work.

Quote from Gringinho:
Actually,
if you look into what hypocrisy means and how it works - you'd learn that hypocrisy is a function of society and a necessary integral part for the conservation of it.

Sorry, that is just the philosophical part of hypocrisy - as a reminder, or knowledge-hint for anyone interested in philosophy.

While this truly is the case for virtually all nations of the world, I'm not too convinced it has to be like this. I believe it is the consequence of realpolitik, the consequence of making entirely independent decisions for each case, of choosing whatever seems the most fitting solution without regard to anything else in each case. This is what Bush does and it is what McCain and Obama will do. The alternative is to have a well-defined ideology, a concrete foundation of well-defined ideals and principles to guide the policies. Take Senator Ron Paul's politics for instance, his ideological views are so consistent, that anyone can tell what he would decide to do in any given situation, just by knowing the nature of his ideology.

That's the kind of nation the founding fathers of the US wanted it to be. Sadly though, in any democratic nation, the populist will always beat the ideologist, because despite the fact that none of them can satisfy everybody, the populist is free to say he will, free to construct his platform in whatever way it needs to be for him to touch the largest amount of voters. The populist will therefor always reflect the people to a larger extent, and thus beat any honest politician. And the worst part is, in order to be the kind of person that is able to get the most votes in a democratic nation, one truly has to be a spineless liar with no true ideals or principles, so the consequence of this effect is not only that our leaders virtually always will be fans of realpolitik, they will also be assholes.

 

[a_person]

Quote from destroyer:

when Israel invaded the sovereign democratic nation Lebanon, killed more than a thousand civilians
Bullshit, Israel killed more than a thousand people but most of them were Hezbollah militants.

Yes, Hezbollah did attack first, and yes, Israel had the right to respond to Hezbollah, but the response was extremely disproportional
and who said the response is supposed to be proportional? And who establishes proportionality anyway. If you punch someone twice as big as you are in the nose do you expect a proportional response of do you expect to spend a few months in a hospital? Let alone the fact that for people like you any Israeli response short of rolling over and dying is disproportionate.

and the true victims was innocent civilians.
Whose civic responsibility was and still is to rid their country of Hezbollah in order to avoid these incidents. Last I checked they are not even trying. It's not Israel's fault that they are forced to do the job the Lebanese are not doing.

Similarly, the Georgian government (not some rogue militants like the Hezbollah, mind you)
Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, mind you.

attacked and killed Russian citizens and Russian peace keepers,
French, Canadian and American citizens were killed in Lebanon, those countries did not invade Israel, they evacuated their citizens.

and everybody agrees the Russians did have the right to respond
You, Fidel Castro and grininqho are not everybody. The rest of the world has condemned Russia, even Russia's closest allies and client states like Belarus and Iran did not support them

to do something to protect its citizens.
The only right thing to do was to evacuate them.

So, if the US wanted to be consistent and non-hypocritical, they would EITHER allow Israel to do whatever they feel is necessary to protect its citizens...and react similarly to the Russian response to Georgian aggression (which they are not doing).
Israel was invaded by Hezbollah, Russia was not invaded by Georgia. There was a raid on Israeli border positions inside of Israel, Georgia operated within its universally recognized borders. There is absolutely nothing in common between these two situations.

What are you guys smoking in Norway?

 

[Gringinho]

Hypocrisy is inherent as a side of the egoism that is part of us all, and everything, with the most simple type of egoism being self-preservation itself. We cannot change this, but there is something called "decision theory" (which is the study/modelling of this process), and we do consider several options and outcomes when we have to chose between actions - at least sometimes.

Also, I think some of the IDF leaders that later resigned after the latest war with Lebanon, then migrated over to Georgia. I remember it mentioned in the Ha'aretz publication. A lot of good the guy did there ...

 

[destroyer]

a_person

Once again you demonstrate how utterly incapable you are of talking about the reality, let alone seeing it from an objective perspective.

when Israel invaded the sovereign democratic nation Lebanon, killed more than a thousand civilians
Bullshit, Israel killed more than a thousand people but most of them were Hezbollah militants.

Here are the facts:

Hezbollah militia casualties:
~250 (Hezbollah claim)
≤500 (Lebanese officials)
~500 (UN officials' est.)
~600 (IDF est.)
Captured: 13 (9 released)

Lebanese civilian casualties:
1191 killed
4409 injured

IDF casualties:
121 killed
(including 2 captured bodies)
~450 wounded

Israeli civilian casualties:
44 dead
1,489 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

So in total, Israel killed more than twice as many civilians as they killed combatants, while Hezbollah killed almost three times as many combatants as they killed civilians. Hezbollah, the ruthless terrorist organization, is evidently far more humane than their Israeli counterparts. That is very disturbing.

and who said the response is supposed to be proportional? And who establishes proportionality anyway.

Obviously proportionality is debatable, but when you kill more than a thousand civilians and wreck a countries infrastructure because a rogue group of militants did an attack on armed soldiers, it's really not much to debate.

Hezbollah enjoys a great deal of support amongst Lebanese Shiites, so getting rid of them is no simple task. No simpler than getting rid of Israelis who support the building of illegal settlements on non-Israeli land.

Hezbollah was part of the Lebanese government, but the Lebanese government had absolutely nothing to do, what so ever, with the militant assault on IDF soldiers at the boarder.

and everybody agrees the Russians did have the right to respond
You, Fidel Castro and grininqho are not everybody. The rest of the world has condemned Russia, even Russia's closest allies and client states like Belarus and Iran did not support them

Show me the evidence. As far as I can recall, both the EU and the US was extremely cautious in choosing their words when Russia invaded South Ossetia. Nobody really condemned anything before Russia started to operate outside the conflict zone, and they are still all talking only about Russian aggression and disproportional response outside the conflict zone.

Israel was invaded by Hezbollah

If that qualifies as an invasion, Israel has probably invaded a dozen countries throughout the world, including Norway when they killed an innocent civilian mistaken for a terrorist in Lillehammer.

You're not looking for information, you don't give a rats ass about the reality nor understanding it, you're conducting some sort of unholy war of information where you've already decided how the world ought to be and you conjure up lies, manipulations and distortions in order to spread this pinkish brown world view of yours. Your words are no more trustworthy than those of holocaust deniers. Better start using some documentation.