No offense, but the reality is just the opposite. Only several former olygarchs are in danger. Most of them (and the richest of them) seem to feel great, have absolutely enormous amounts of money and have no problems living in Russia and flying on their business jets to European resorts and back.
Russia gas nationalization and politics
- Thread starter Hook N. Sinker
- Start date
No offense, but the reality is just the opposite. Only several former olygarchs are in danger. Most of them (and the richest of them) seem to feel great, have absolutely enormous amounts of money and have no problems living in Russia and flying on their business jets to European resorts and back.
LOL. I agree with the statement "only several of the former olygarchs" ......maybe we are talking past each other. I was referring to Berevosky in London and the other one in Isreal that Russia is demanding to be deported. There are probably new oligarchs that have been created and I know Abramov is tolerated by Putin. Furthermore, with all the oil money being created over there .......there probably have been two or three new oligarchs created during the course of this thread.
cheers
N&D
Well, really Beresovsky, Gusinsky and Hodorkovsky (and his partners) are either in jail or hiding in Israel and London.
But let's open the Forbes Russia for 2006:
Abramovich (Chelsea): $18.7B
Deripaska (Rusal): $12.7B (he is already ahead of the first one since then).
Fridman (Alfa): $11.4B
etc. etc.
Here is the link if you want the full list:
http://finansmag.ru/25495
If this is called nationalization, then I am Bill Gates.
BTW, I am not a communist, I'm not against billionairs, not against wealthy people and work hard to become more wealthy myself. But there must be some social responsibility for average Russian citizens too.
And what's happening now is impudent lies and as I see some people believe in it, when the reality is that in one of the ricchest countries in the world average people live much worse than in any other country with comparable possibilities. So people here could live much different than they do now, but most of them prefer to believe in silly tales and think that everything is better than ever.
Ok, this is going nowhere, I stand by my statement that most people do not know sh*t about sh*t no matter where they are from. If I have explain the difference between SELLING OUT your natural resources vs selling natural resource products/commodities to international buyers, then I am wasting my time. This is besides the point that you cannot answer any of my questions directly, nor can you understand my stance on "nationalization" or probably understand why it is a defensive tactic. There is NO COINCIDENCE that both Russia and Venezuela are making nationalization moves at the same time. I know it's hard to believe, but the causes & reasons are not because evil Putin & evil Chavez want to rob you blind. Far from it.
As someone who is involved in renewable energy, I will tell you that you are wrong on your assumptions about a lack of innovation coming out of Russia. There are a number of breakthrough developments coming out of Russia and Ukraine, from a new silicon production process to self-sustainbale housing to Silver medal solar panels.
Do the following, cause even with your knowledge, you come off as speaking out of your @$$:
A) Pick a comparable to make your Putin criticisms against
B) Research what happens when a nation sells out, South & Central America are full of them. So is Africa. (By the way, to compare Russia to Africa, wow, quite a longshot. I can tell you do not really know what goes on in Africa)
C) Pick what you prefer, Putin era or 1990s. You have yet to state which one is better, only that they are the same. But I don't see how they are, personally, just the stable ruble vs worthless ruble is enough for me to make a decision.
If Gazprom was bought out by multinational corporate, you would see your electric & natural gas prices double or triple. Is that what you want?
Seriously, you sound like my grandmother. She complains, yet is better off under Putin than she would be under Bush.
LOL. If it's so bad to live in "under Bush" why don't you simply move to Russia?
And seriously, read above: there is no NATIONALIZATION! There is USURPATION of national resources! Everyone who does not see this is either blind or just an idiot.
And recources ARE SOLD OUT! Not products - RAW natural gas and oil. Show me Russian made gasoline on European gas stations? Oops.
Thre is no big difference if gas, oil, nickel et cetera are took from the bowels of the earth by "national" Gazprom and then sold out to Europe or say Texaco and sold out to US. Russian people don't see a piece of these enormous profits from selling out these NOT RENEWABLE resources. So what's the difference?
In Norway and some Arab countries their citizens regularly get a honest share of national wealth and level of life in these countries is very high. If that would be so I'd agree with you that nationalization takes place. But there is no even a sign of it in Russia.
Of course now is better than in 90's and I don't know exactly who could come instead of Putin, but it doesn't mean that normal country can not be built. You suggest to choose between bad and bad. But I am sure there are some other ways as well. There always are. Only very weak people think that they have no choice. IMHO the problem is not even in Putin himself but in that he's simply weak leader and can't keep in order those around him.
I am ready to pay more for gas and everything but to live in normal circumstances. All Europe pays twice or even more for gas and nothing terrible happens. Even citizens of not the richest European countries like Czech Republic (I often visit Prague and even plan to move there with my family) while paying a lot more for gas in general live much better than average Russian citizens. Average salaries and pensions are higher, crime is negligible compared to Russia, corruption too.
Believe me, I'm not a poor boy who just cries because he's poor. Personally me and my family live much better than average Russians, many of my relatives have their own businesses, I have a lot of friends in business community. I know what I talk about.
And now you come and tell me that I know nothing. LOL
Once again: I think not about myself, I'm OK already, I am upset for our country, for common people!
One more thing! Who told you the above is thanks to current government? IMHO it's DESPITE it. Russian people are talented who would argue that?
But it's amazing how many of them (I guess you are native russian too?) like to value themselves much less than they are worth. If something is made in country it's made by PEOPLE, not Putin or someone. But when all the power is usurpated and people have no choice it is clear who is guilty.
Though people are partially guilty too... That they allow all this.
It's an endless dispute. We'll never agree with each other. So my conclusion would be simply let everyone lives where he wants and how he wants.
If you hate Bush and like Putin, come live here and enjoy.
CFerret, +1. 100% agree with you.Quote from CFerret:
One more thing! Who told you the above is thanks to current government? IMHO it's DESPITE it. Russian people are talented who would argue that?
But it's amazing how many of them (I guess you are native russian too?) like to value themselves much less than they are worth. If something is made in country it's made by PEOPLE, not Putin or someone. But when all the power is usurpated and people have no choice it is clear who is guilty.
Though people are partially guilty too... That they allow all this.
It's an endless dispute. We'll never agree with each other. So my conclusion would be simply let everyone lives where he wants and how he wants.
If you hate Bush and like Putin, come live here and enjoy.
Quote from CFerret:
LOL. If it's so bad to live in "under Bush" why don't you simply move to Russia?
Plan on it and it will happen, you should recheck my posts. I want to stick it out for certain reasons. But if the sh*t hits the fan, believe me, I will be in Moscow or Crimea soon enough.
And seriously, read above: there is no NATIONALIZATION! There is USURPATION of national resources! Everyone who does not see this is either blind or just an idiot.
Now you're just arguing semantics. Nationalization is a broad topic and spand from "friendly" to "controversial".
And you do not know how the process will end. DEFENSIVE tactics, there are more urgent priorities. Putin's latest tirades should have given you clear hints.
And recources ARE SOLD OUT! Not products - RAW natural gas and oil. Show me Russian made gasoline on European gas stations? Oops.
I don't know the exact process of selling energy assets direct to consumers in Europe. And check New York and New Jersey in USA. PLENTY of RUSSIAN owned & run gasoline.
I stand by what I said, if Chevron/Shell/[fill in scumbag energy multinational] acquired Gazprom, you would see YOUR gas & electric costs double or triple. Hope you realize it has been documented in several financial journals just how cheap Gazprom is selling their products to the population. It is essentially subsidized.
Do I have to draw diagram to explain this further? Or maybe you should look the effects of electric utility deregulation in USA.
Norway, yes. Once again, SOCIALIST regime with strong elements of capitalism under constant change. Took DECADES to accomplish.
Arab countries, ehh maybe UAE & Jordan which are exclusive richie richie land supported by migrant almost slave labor.
So you're complaining why? Move to f**king Estonia then. Or Czech. Hey, why not Rumania while you're at it.
I never said the original process of privatization was even "badly" done, it was horrific. All those assets you saw sold out were done by the oligarchs prior to Putin, sometimes for pennies on the dollars. Why do you think Khordokovsky is in jail and Yukos HAD to be confiscated. It was under transfer.
Last I checked, Putin is elected BY THE POPULATION and not some electoral college system. Correct me if I am wrong, but Russia had a full chance to go toward a Communist type government again with the true "nationalization" you want. And this was during its worst times.
Sounds like even the poorest ppl prefer a stable ruble to a worthless one.
WRONG! One group in St. Petersburg at least one other in Moscow. I will even get you the names of them if you really want. They only fund research, however.
The guys with the new process of silicon got their original funding from the government.
I never expected you to reply. I don't even know why you reply, my original statement is that things are improving under Putin. You already confirmed it. Things are better for the population also. It's not heaven, no, not yet.
You dislike socialism, yet you dislike the privatisation in 1991, so pick smth. You want a Norway type system. Well if seems that a lot of the previously privatised/robbed assets need to be re-privatised again.
OK now you don't like Estonia!
Very nice country BTW.And just as you plan to move in Russia I plan to move in Prague. So no problems.
As for why I answer: you write in public forum which means you want people to read and react. Or do you write it all for yourself?
Yes I want a Norway type system. Cause now (it's amazing you don't see it) nothing is different from what was in 90's, all the same people own the best pieces of this cake and take all the profits. Nation doesn't get anything. I know it takes time, but first what needed is MOVEMENT in this direction. And I don't see this movement.
BTW from Arab countries you forgot to mention Qatar where level of life is even better than in US.
And as for "elected by people"... Well, your favourite Bush is also elected by people. Crowd is stupid animal.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4674298.html
March 30, 2007, 2:55AM
Reports: Calls for Putin to serve longer
© 2007 The Associated Press
MOSCOW A leading Russian lawmaker called Friday for constitutional changes that would allow President Vladimir Putin to stay in office beyond 2008, Russian news agencies reported.
Sergei Mironov, the speaker of the upper house of parliament, said the presidential term should be extended from four to at least five years and that presidents should be permitted to serve more than two consecutive terms, RIA-Novosti and ITAR-Tass reported.
"I propose that you consider the possibility of changing the appropriate articles of the constitution," RIA-Novosti quoted Mironov as saying shortly after he was re-elected as speaker of the Federation Council by its members. He also called for provincial legislatures nationwide to hold meetings to discuss the issue, ITAR-Tass reported.
The constitutional limit of two straight four-year terms prohibits Putin from running in Russia's presidential election next March. Amid repeated calls by pro-Kremlin politicians for changes allowing him to stay on, the popular leader has repeatedly suggested he will step down, but he has also made statements that appear to leave the door open for a change of heart.
"The final decision, of course, will be up to Vladimir Putin; maybe he will listen to the voice of the deputies (lawmakers)," ITAR-Tass quoted Mironov as saying.
March 30, 2007, 2:55AM
Reports: Calls for Putin to serve longer
© 2007 The Associated Press
MOSCOW A leading Russian lawmaker called Friday for constitutional changes that would allow President Vladimir Putin to stay in office beyond 2008, Russian news agencies reported.
Sergei Mironov, the speaker of the upper house of parliament, said the presidential term should be extended from four to at least five years and that presidents should be permitted to serve more than two consecutive terms, RIA-Novosti and ITAR-Tass reported.
"I propose that you consider the possibility of changing the appropriate articles of the constitution," RIA-Novosti quoted Mironov as saying shortly after he was re-elected as speaker of the Federation Council by its members. He also called for provincial legislatures nationwide to hold meetings to discuss the issue, ITAR-Tass reported.
The constitutional limit of two straight four-year terms prohibits Putin from running in Russia's presidential election next March. Amid repeated calls by pro-Kremlin politicians for changes allowing him to stay on, the popular leader has repeatedly suggested he will step down, but he has also made statements that appear to leave the door open for a change of heart.
"The final decision, of course, will be up to Vladimir Putin; maybe he will listen to the voice of the deputies (lawmakers)," ITAR-Tass quoted Mironov as saying.