Russia gas nationalization and politics
- Thread starter Hook N. Sinker
- Start date
As opposed to whom? Please pick a comparable. Bush LOL?
So you're saying 1990s wolf capitalism was the same or better than now? I think you need to re-check that.
First of all, it was not a revolution, it was a military coup by the bolsheviks. Check who Lenin was financed by and why. The people never chose communists, all they wanted was a reformation of the czarist system with socialist concepts, and this was driven more by the middle class than anyone. Why do you think there was an instant civil war and who do you think was financing the Reds?
Second of all, no it was not a little better, there was a CIVIL WAR and collectivization, which was brutal and highly resisted. Communism was put on by force and held by force. There were some plusses, but many horrible minuses. The initial industrialization was a miracle, but the cost was immoral & evil.
So the people wanted to get rid of it and got wolf capitalism.
That's funny, you should look in USA a bit more. It's not corrupt or bribes, it's professional, via lobbyist groups.
The masses are being run like sheep, that I agree with.
It serves a defensive purpose, but I agree with your point. We'll see whether Putin decides to properly redistribute and privatize the most important assets of the nation. Because the first time, the hands off privatization was a disaster.
There is a more important battle at stake. US is about to go to war with Iran so who knows WTF will be the consequences.
So many words for such a clear problem!
Notice, I NEVER said that I like what was here in 90's. What I am saying is that what's happening now is not better! It's just an illusion of defence of national interests, in reality happens just the opposite: more money than EVER is being transferred FROM Russia, no real economic reforms are made, so we are simply in stagnation and everything is more or less good in Russia not because of Putin or anyone else, but simply because oil is expensive!
Open your eyes: if national interests would be defended, all that huge profit from oil export would be directed to development of another sectors (first of all: science and high technology) of economy or at least they could make normal roads, which made USA much stronger when it happened there.
NOTHING IS DONE! ABSOLUTELY!
I don't even mention all nightmare for people who decide to start their own business because of incredible corruption!
We now look like huge Nigeria with nuclear weapons.
Please believe me, I love Russia and only because I wish it all the best I am saying all this criticism!
BTW, you didn't answer my question: where do you live? I'm asking cause it seems that you don't even imagine what's really happening here.
P. S. Please don't call me comrade, I don't like communists.
Latin America has a lot of oil and gas. In Latin America (with the exception of Venezuela and Bolivia, and then only very, very recently), the energy concessions have been granted to foreign (read: US and European) companies, who funnel all of the value from their energy sales to the US and Europe, after allocating a cut for the corrupt local officials who made it possible. The same thing happens in Africa and elsewhere.
In Venezuela, the people voted overwhelmingly in free elections for a leader who openly proposed nationalizing the energy industry. (Even The Economist wrote that Chavez was freely elected.) Such is the very definition of democracy - it means accepting the decisions of the people as a whole as expressed through their vote, even if you don't personally approve of them. It's an all-or-nothing proposition; you can't support democracy only when it produces results that you happen to like.
The Venezuelan people evidently want to live under socialism. The Venezuelan nationalization was perfectly legal and the result of a democratic process. (The foreign companies were even paid for their stakes, which was in no way necessary.)
The same thing was beginning to happen with energy in Russia. Was Putin to sit idly by and watch as foreign companies carted off Russia's valuable energy resources and began buying their way into Russian politics through corrupt local proxies?
In Venezuela, the people voted overwhelmingly in free elections for a leader who openly proposed nationalizing the energy industry. (Even The Economist wrote that Chavez was freely elected.) Such is the very definition of democracy - it means accepting the decisions of the people as a whole as expressed through their vote, even if you don't personally approve of them. It's an all-or-nothing proposition; you can't support democracy only when it produces results that you happen to like.
The Venezuelan people evidently want to live under socialism. The Venezuelan nationalization was perfectly legal and the result of a democratic process. (The foreign companies were even paid for their stakes, which was in no way necessary.)
The same thing was beginning to happen with energy in Russia. Was Putin to sit idly by and watch as foreign companies carted off Russia's valuable energy resources and began buying their way into Russian politics through corrupt local proxies?
Yeah. Naive people often think that "nationalized" means the same as "their own". In reality though, it usually means that all those resources become "owned" (not legally, but de-facto) by the small group which gained all the power in the country.
History has seen many facts of this. Sorry that people still believe in these silly tales about socialism and communism.
Though there are some examples of much more real socialism and proper usage of natural resources, Norway is only one of them. But their leaders prefer not to shout from the tribune like "commandante Cha" and his friend Lukashenko do; they just do what they have to do. Anybody knows the name of Norwegian #1 person? I don't.
But this country is a real example of perfect synthesis of democracy and honest distribution of natural resources (it has a lot of oil and gas too). And simple people there live not much worse than in US or any other developed country.
So honest distribution of nation's wealth is not = nationalisation and communism.
First of all, I never stated that nationalization is a distribution of nation's wealth, I have stated on SEVERAL occasions that the current nationalization moves are DEFENSIVE tactics. For the third time, take a look at what happens when a nation sells out its resources and who the benefactor always happens to be. Last I checked, the Venezuelans are pretty happy, so happy that even CIA's efforts to get rid of Chavez failed. Their energy is highly subsidized, while Americans are feeling pain from gas prices. Neither you nor I can predict what Putin's plan is. What I do believe, however, is that it's a bit early to pass harsh judgements, especially when there are such issues as USA's spread turmoil in Middle East and a scary excess of Global liquidity. What I hope, is that the nationalized assets will be re-privatized in a proper manner, like it was done in Europe.
Second of all, you have some fuzzy logic, you do not like that the oil profits were not being redirected toward social cause (agreed), yet up until now, all those profits were PRIVATE. And they went toward Moscow's real estate & commercial services, along with banks, finances, basically, the rich. So now you're upset that these assets are being nationalized cause you feel the same won't happen. How do you know that? Russian government has been dead broke broke and defaulted several times prior to Putin, how do you know the financial situation has been fixed?
Third, you have serious misconceptions about USA. The image and the real thing are different. Government investment is in the military only serves two purposes : the industrial/military conglomerates and an ability to go invade a country when it decides to make an attack on the $US dollar. Also to support worldwide conflicts that serve and support USA's imperialist causes.
Most major technology investment was made by the private sector (with exception of the internet). This by the way, is one of the key benefits of capitalism.
In terms of other investments, maybe you should take note that the education budget was recently cut by almost half as Mr. Bush needs money and poor dumb folk to go to Iran and who knows elsewhere.
Fourth, socialism DOES NOT EQUAL communism. Not the same thing, not too similiar either. Lenin may have embraced Marxist concepts, but take note that he was being financed & coached by the West. Bit strange?
Stalin's industrialization and miracle growth was actually based on the idea of state-controlled capitalism. Instead of playing mind games, exploiting third world and establishing financial serfdom, he just did it by force. Control the capital and means of productions and you can do whatever you want with the wage labor.
Fifth, you said
So your complaint is? That things aren't better now? Which is nonsense, cause I doubt you prefer government vouchers, bi-annual currency crises and hyperinflation to a stable (and appreciating) ruble and just plain old high inflation. Or do you prefer the mob of 1990s to that of now?
Never said everything is great, far from it. But there is improvement & opportunity. You think Russia is the only country with regulations for small business? If you only knew the sh*t they can pull here, and unlike Russia, you aren't bribing your way out.
You want Russia to be like Norway. Well how about researching how long it took for nations like Germany, Norway, Finland and Sweden to get where they are now.
P.S. It's not hard to check where I live, we do have profiles. Regardless, why should it matter, most people do not know sh*t about where they live. Besides close family in Moscow & Ukraine, I have a few friends who travel back on forth on regular basis. The whole spectrum is told, your gripes are nothing comparing to my grandmother. Funny thing is, on her own, she would be worse off here.
Excellent Commentary All....
Although a very small percentage of people in the US control the majority of the wealth...as is the case in other countries....it does seem that Chavez, Putin, and other leaders that favor nationalization of assets fail to understand the importance of free market stock and debt exchanges...
Nationalization stifles the concept of the competitive edge...and also discounts the assets under control...
Chavez, Putin and others are now using energy as the financial focus whereby the cash flows are strong...however what they are going to end up with is far less money in terms of asset valuation...perhaps as much as 70%....not including the elimination of faster development of resources...
Thus in the quest for more money and control...they are stiffing their public supporters by literally vaporizing the valuations that could have easily been attained...and have slowed down development by adding decades to progressive movement...and have perhaps eliminated competitive fervor...
The US...Europe...and Asia need to prove out capitalism by spreading the wealth that capitalism creates...thereby slowing down or eliminating the far left or communist movement that dramatically discounts assets and dramatically slows down the competitive fervor that drives innovation and productivity....
Although a very small percentage of people in the US control the majority of the wealth...as is the case in other countries....it does seem that Chavez, Putin, and other leaders that favor nationalization of assets fail to understand the importance of free market stock and debt exchanges...
Nationalization stifles the concept of the competitive edge...and also discounts the assets under control...
Chavez, Putin and others are now using energy as the financial focus whereby the cash flows are strong...however what they are going to end up with is far less money in terms of asset valuation...perhaps as much as 70%....not including the elimination of faster development of resources...
Thus in the quest for more money and control...they are stiffing their public supporters by literally vaporizing the valuations that could have easily been attained...and have slowed down development by adding decades to progressive movement...and have perhaps eliminated competitive fervor...
The US...Europe...and Asia need to prove out capitalism by spreading the wealth that capitalism creates...thereby slowing down or eliminating the far left or communist movement that dramatically discounts assets and dramatically slows down the competitive fervor that drives innovation and productivity....
You argue everything right, except one important thing: does Russia (BTW, Venezuela too) decrease it's dependance from oil and gas as these industry sectors are being nationalized? No! Resources are sold out even more than before! And absolutely nothing is done to develop other sectors of Russian economy. Do you understand this simple truth?
Financial situation fixed itself as soon as oil prices went up. Did Putin made them do so?
A private company pays taxes, doesn't it? And govermnent redistributes this money to develop those areas of life in country which need it. What happens now? Instead of private owners all these companies now owned by state. What did it result? Increbidle growth of bureucracy and corruption, because there is no proper control over companies lik Gazprom and many contracts are signed with "right people". Salaries of top-managers of these companies which should (as you say) serve nation's interests are already ahead income of US and European top-managers, the same Gazprom is twice less effective company than comparable Canadian companies etc. etc. I can tell you a long story about how "effective" is this governmental management.
And don't calm yourself with illusions: all those expensive houses are still bought along with Lambos, Ferraris and yachts, bought by bureucrats, number of which exceeded even what was in USSR!
So what you call "fuzzy logic" I call common sense. I live here, I constantly communicate with many different people, including business community and know what I say. It's REALITY!
I never told I support Bush, did I?
I admire you! What a saint naiveness! "Regulations on small business". LOL! When every bureucrat (and you have to come through many of them even to simply start your business) politely hints you that it would be good if you put in his table's box a stack of $$ or you simply will have problems with him and it already became NORMAL here, you call this "regulations"? You must be a very kind person.
Reality here is MUCH like Africa which you like to mention, believe me, my friend!
I know it takes time to reach some level and never claimed that everything should become ideal right now. But that's exactly where the problem is: instead of moving ahead, Russia is trying to move BACK and mimic USSR, just under the new flag, "dirigible democracy" instead of communism.
And that's why I don't like what's happening here. 90's were a hard time for many people, yes, but then we at least had a HOPE! Now the futher, the less this hope for normal future becomes.
That is my complaint: we don't move ahead, we move back and seem not to understand that it is impossible to copy the past and even if it would it's not the right way to go.
I also have a lot of friends in US and often travel to Europe, but I don't discuss their problems being absolutely sure that I know what I talk about. Prefer to listen to people who live there and really know something.
Here is were I agree with Hydroblunt. What Russia had under the Neocon Oligarchs was in effect a Nationalization....with the benefactors being the United States and some Neocon Oligarchs. Now Putin does a nationalization back to Russia. I see this more as "back to square one". Maybe if the Oligarchs and the US oil companies would have created more win/win situations and NOT loot the damn place......Putin would not have slammed them.
Furthermore, Putin had to put up with them sending Human Rights groups to yell all kinds of nonsense. Of course, this time the Russians caught them ON NATIONAL TV spying!!!! LOL. In America, we do not get to see the Human Rights operatives spying for Britain caught red handed on Fox News. We got to go on the internet for that. It's not good for the Neocons to show that to the Americans.........they may realize that Russia is NOT an enemy .......the Neocon and the Neocon Oligarchs are the real enemy.