Russa Invades Georgia - Full Scale Invasion

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

I have an interest in this since I am involved in developing software that combats such concerted actions, electronic voting fraud and other disruptive attack strategies by creating trust-based voting and better forum scoring mechanisms.
Don't do it man, you'll be shocked to find out that you are a fringe anti-amerian lunatic and the only people who consistently agree with your views are Fidel Castro and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

I don't think anyone, even Russia, are contesting Georgia's soverignity.
Right, it's like me saying that no one is contesting Iraq's sovereignty, I am sure you'd agree, wouldn't you? Putin has invaded Georgia and bombs the crap out of it but they are not contesting its sovereignty. LOL, thanks a lot and next time try to use your brain before you post.

So why are you trying to tout that as a major concern?
Because the invasion of a sovereign country is a big deal.

Defending a ethnic minority population
Oh puhlease!!! Russia the defender of the weak and oppressed. LOL, seriously, do you think you're clever? Or you're trying to become the forum's clown? Then you perhaps have a chance.

from being wiped out
you sound like a hysterical arab when an israeli bullet kills his camel. I realize you are not an arab/muslim but clearly you learn from the masters of lies, hysteria and exaggerations.

 

[W4rl0ck]

Your list is incomplete -

Israel:

USA sailors Killed 34
Wounded 170+

Go Israel! In this case the zionist weren't under anyone's bed, but rather attacking a US flagged ship with everything they had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

If that had been an Israeli ship, there'd already be ten movies made about it and how the valiant sailors were slaughtered in cold blood by an evil enemy of all that is holy.

Quote from a_person:

Actually you're not exactly right, here is the data on the six day war (1967):



Israel: 264,000 (incl. 214,000 reserve troops) 300 combat aircraft 800 tanks

Arabs: Egypt: 240,000 Syria, Jordan, and Iraq:307,000 957 combat aircraft 2,504 tanks

Casualties and losses

Israel: 800 killed, 2,563 wounded, 15 prisoners, 46 aircraft lost

Egypt- 11,500 killed and 20,000 wounded, Jordan- 700 killed and 2,500 wounded, Syria- 2,500 killed and 5,000 wounded, Iraq- 10 killed and 30 wounded
Total number- 21,000 killed, 45,000 wounded,
6,000 prisoners
over 400 aircraft destroyed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Day_War

Oh and btw, the US did not start its aid program until 6-7 years later, all major Israeli victories were not due to the US. And these victories are the reason why Israeli military advisers are in high demand all over the world.

 

[a_person]

Quote from W4rl0ck:

Your list is incomplete -

Sure it was complete in the context of the discussion. My list was about the military balance between Israel and the arabs during their wars, it had nothing to do with other innocent victims and friendly fire incidents confirmed as such by a dozen investigations. Not that I expect you to understand it though as jew-haters tend to be pretty dumb people.

 

[Gringinho]

a_person,
the only tactic I see you using is by always turning to personal attacks and sabotaging discussions with ridicule, and trying to divert the discussions into Israel-Palestine-Iran topics, while the israeli participation and interests in the conflict in Georgia is a separate topic - and the one we are discussing here. You may have an agenda for keeping up the effort of diverting the discussions, like others who are employing similar tactics, examples of which have been brought up in this discussion.

I am interested in the objective facts and background for events - I do not appreciate being deceived or lied to by media who are being used as tools for political interests, that's why I use a sense of critical thinking learned as child in a normal schooling environment. Analyzing risks, probable outcomes and who is to gain in a scenario is part of this process and offers valuable insight as long as one does not freely speculate but support oneself on facts for keeping possible outcomes realistic.

I am sure, others are also interested in having discussions that are not marred by people like you. That is why I am pursuing systems and functionality to prevent organized groups in destroying critical sense and objective reporting on events that are sometimes sensitive to some nations.

Russian president Medvedev said yesterday that they respect the sovereignity of Georgia on the press-conference with french president Sarkozy.

The russians had little to gain from initiating the conflict - but a lot more to lose from the conflict. Understanding their side and that they were in an impossible situation to not react, since non-reaction would seriously undermine their influence there and not to mention allow the slaughter of an ethnic minority population, I think they did the only thing they could do. The surprise was that they showed a great deal of restraint in not going further for military and defense strategic goals to send a message to the supporters of the georgian attackers. That showed a great deal of understanding of the lesser political risk they would suffer by favouring a political solution to the conflict longer term.

I think no one expects Russia to sit idly by when they are attacked and civilians they are protecting - are under attack. This is also why it abundantly clear that this was not simply an insane fluke from a miscalculating georgian president, but considering the rewards and most probable outcomes, this was an orchestrated effort by some with interests in the region and the georgian leadership.

Of course the georgian leadership carried out the actual attacks, but seeing the media onslaught and preparations beforehand bears the hallmarks of other recent conflicts with great media coverage. The aftermath is of course about winning the "media chatter" and public opinion for further political capital.

Now, this is a balanced view of the events. I am not favouring any of the sides, except showing indignation that an innocent ethnic minority population have to suffer the deaths and loss of property for political goals that are mainly external to Georgia itself. That is utterly repugnant.

I am also not anti-american, but I do think the US is involved in politics where they show lack of consideration for others than themselves. They clearly do not hesitate to see great civilian losses to reach their political, economic and strategic goals. Seeing the shift in power with the economic turmoil, clearly has the US reacting in many ways that is negative for other parts of the world - and world stability, Europe included. I personally see myself as much more Laissez-faire than most US residents, as well as believing in more expressed capitalist ideas than the protectionist US politicians quick to subsidize any industry and regulate any market they see fit to; the energy-market being the worst example of US staunch regulations. Being critical to politics - in whatever country, or whatever political party - does not mean I am anti-whatever or hate them.

 

[W4rl0ck]

Seems like the zionists were the haters little guy.

Good attempt at name calling tho. I would expect nothing less from you. P.S. You forgot the catch all "anti-seeemite" screed. I'm sure you'll catch up.

Quote from a_person:

Sure it was complete in the context of the discussion. My list was about the military balance between Israel and the arabs during their wars, it had nothing to do with other innocent victims and friendly fire incidents confirmed as such by a dozen investigations. Not that I expect you to understand it though as jew-haters tend to be pretty dumb people.

 

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

I am interested in the objective facts and background for events - I do not appreciate being deceived or lied to...
Russian president Medvedev said yesterday that they respect the sovereignity of Georgia
Lol!!! You actually did put these two sentences right next to each other. You get your "objective facts" from Putin and Ahmadinejad? And my suggestion to use your brain before posting fell on deaf ears, as I fully expected.

The russians had little to gain from initiating the conflict - but a lot more to lose from the conflict.
And that's supposed to justify an illegal invasion?


non-reaction would seriously undermine their influence there
Oh, cry me a river, I am so concerned about the influence (or lack of thereof) of these barbarians on neighboring sovereign countries.


and not to mention allow the slaughter of an ethnic minority population
They should start with the Chechens if that's their concern

I think they did the only thing they could do.
I wish you were as lenient to the US and Israel (which does have existential concerns).

I think no one expects Russia to sit idly by when they are attacked
They were not.

and civilians they are protecting
Right, and we were protecting the Kurds. Are you on board with the Iraq war now Mr.NodoubleStandards?

but seeing the media onslaught and preparations beforehand bears the hallmarks of other recent conflicts
You're using the media to blame Israel and the US when it's convenient for you and then turn around and blame the media when they are on the opposite side of an issue. Nice try buddy but no cigar.

Now, this is a balanced view of the events.
I am sure it is...in your dreams.

I am not favouring any of the sides,
You're just defending one side (Russia) while condemning the other (Georgia) and somehow trying to smear yet another side (Israel). Other than that you're not playing favorites

I am also not anti-american, but I do think the US is involved in politics where they show lack of consideration for others than themselves.
Whether you're right or wrong you just approved and defended this exact attitude coming from Russia. But as you said you don't have double standards.

They clearly do not hesitate to see great civilian losses to reach their political, economic and strategic goals.
Are you talking about the US or Russia bombing Georgian targets?

 

[Gringinho]

a_person,

Medvedev said that they respect and will continue to respect Georgias sovereignity. They do protect the minority groups and have been for some time. Russia did not overthrow the georgian president or try to kill him, although they could easily have done so.

Of course Russia has strategic and political interests in the region - mainly as an area neighbouring them. However, this conflict was mainly about NATO and western interests in Georgia. NATO, or at least strong western support, is important for the georgian survival for the long term - understandably. Georgian leadership seemingly showed no hesitations in sacrificing civilians for this longer term strategic goal, and economic interests. The US gained a lot of secondary rewards from this conflict, and would have rewards no matter the outcome.

You are your own worst enemy in this discussion, because your poor debating skills are hampering your efforts to sabotage discussions.

 

[a_person]

Quote from Gringinho:

(Gringinho about himself)-I am interested in the objective facts and background for events - I do not appreciate being deceived or lied to
(and about his sources)-Medvedev said that they respect and will continue to respect Georgias sovereignity.

(Gringinho about Russia)-Of course Russia has strategic and political interests in the region
(and about the US)-They clearly do not hesitate to see great civilian losses to reach their political, economic and strategic goals.

(Gringinho about Georgia's survival)-NATO, or at least strong western support, is important for the georgian survival.
(and about Georgia attacking Russia)-I think no one expects Russia to sit idly by when they are attacked

LOL, keep arguing with yourself.

 

[bwolinsky]

This first part is just an aside. I've read everything that came after my post. Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic. I might suggest to not bring it up, because there's no relevance here.

It matters little what religion the Georgian is, because he's not influenced at all by Israeli politics. Certainly not to the extent that some are purporting on here.

I left on the question of whether Russia should help a separatist government. The US did start as a separatist government. A long war was fought over it. It looks like South Ossetia has similar goals. I don't really care if they want to be communist or capitalist, because it seems every communist or socialist government has figured out that you need some level of capitalism to function.

Someone on another thread said the US would go bankrupt, but that's never going to happen.

If they've chosen to declare independence, I don't think it's Georgia's place to try to dissuade them. Reports indicate there was no military threat from South Ossetia's capital, so what were they trying to do when they started firing mortars at the capital?

1) Kill people. A very blunt, ruthless tactic.

Like I said. This looks exactly like the United States' reasoning for entering the conflict in Bosnia, Serbia, and Kosovo. The difference might be that tens of thousands weren't killed in a genocidal attack by the "sovereign" government.

Russia did take the high road by not completely conquering the country.

On a side note, I find it pathetic that Russia lost 11 jets over this. I think it has been a good decade since the US lost one of its fighters or bombers. Helicopters are different stories, but I think you get the point.

Let's try to stay on topic, please.

 

[Syprik]

So let me get this straight, South Ossetia has declared de facto independence from Georgia dating back to the early 90's. Some S.Ossetia separatists provoke Georgian forces with light arms/artillery (a common mutual occurance for the last 5yrs). Georgia decides to take advantage of this particular squabble, goes into super-max attack mode and shells Ossetia capital Tskhinvali to the ground. Hundreds if not a 1000+ S.Ossetia citizens (more than half the 70k that populate area are Russians with "Russian" passports) are killed. Russia not surprisingly moves in the following day to secure area and then over-steps itself for a few days by extending squirmish deeper into Georgia (isolates and attacks military targets & bases).

Yet according to Western media, Russia is the single party of blame? Please explain this one to me. I'm no fan of Putin and Russia's economic thug attitude, but this is just a bit ridiculous.

What is rather interesting is the similarity between this conflict and that of Israel-Hezbollah-Lebanon 2006 conflict. Hezbollah creates minor border squirmish, kills and kidnaps less than a dozen Israeli soldiers, Israel uses it as excuse to wage a full blown war on "all" of Lebanon, resulting in 1200 "civilian" deaths and $ billions in infrastructure damage. The US doesn't bat an eye and effectively allows Israel to destroy Lebanon for nearly a month by blocking any quick peace resolutions that Europe/UN were looking to implement. What Israel did during that conflict was multitudes worse than what Russia has done in this recent Georgian conflict. Yet the blaring bias in American media/ policy would never make you think that.

Do we need to even bring up the glaring double standard with US invasion of Iraq? I'm sure Russia is just flipping this card left and right in the diplomatic channels.

Perhaps the American administration is just using this to poke an eye back at Russia for their strong dissapproval of Czech based radar system? Cooler heads need to pre-vail. Isolating Russia (ex, removing from G8) would be a serious error in foreign policy. Is it prudent to give them an excuse to distance themselves further from US/Euro and closer to more rogue parties like NK and Iran?

Got a chuckle out of McCain today: "We are all Georgian's today." Sorry bud, but 99% of American's couldn't even place Georgia on the map nor have a clue about their complex history/people. Using this for political gains is outright sad.