Ron Paul says healthcare not a right

[Angrycat]

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

what's off topic is pharmacy strikes...

First of all, I'm not the one who keeps yammering about how much better France is. That would be you. I say, bon voyage! I'm sure they're dying to have another freeloader in their midst.

Second, since when are pharmacy strikes not relevant to a healthcare discussion. Or is it that you just don't know what a pharmacy dispenses?


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Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

I'm from the south, atlanta specifically... i'm familiar with high temps. it's natural for more people to die at those temperatures in france because it's an anomaly there, it's very very unusual for them to experience those temperatures... unlike the american south where it's a regular occurance...

Well, I'm from freezing cold Moscow and moved to the South shortly after immigrating here and nobody in my family died the first time the temperature rose to 100 degrees. Generally, people who migrate from Chicago to Arizona don't drop dead during their first heatwave either, so that suggests something other than lack of acclimation, Sparky.


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Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

did you seriously just bring up the preference for wine instead of beer as a reason for 2 years extra lifespan? that would be in the same post where you admit that those 2 years are statistically significant when you said the opposite in previous post... which is it?

I didn't say either of those things. Your reading comprehension skills may be the reason you sound so stupid. I told you to lose weight if you want to live longer.

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

and yes they are LONGER lifespans, they are longer than american whites... they are longer than most of the rest of europe,

Oh, well if Momo on the ET board says so, it must be true. Fuck the doctors who actually study this. What do they know? Did you even look up the research? Do even know HOW to navigate away from this site once your mother types the URL in for you?

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:


and you act as if there are no minorities in france... there are MANY MANY arabs and africans in france... paris is half african/muslim these days...

I didn't say ALL populations of non-European extraction have a higher predisposition for chronic life-shortening diseases, moron. I said blacks (of the sub-Saharan African variety we have here) and Hispanics (predominantly Mexicans that we have here) are sadly predisposed. North Africans are NOT predisposed. In fact, they pretty much eat a Mediterranean diet and obesity rates among them are much lower.

and....somebody should really tell you this and it might as well be me...."Muslim" is not a race and Paris is not half African - you need to stop hanging out in tourist only places like the Champs-Elysee where the rich North African and Saudi tourists hang.

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Angrycat:

I didn't say ALL populations of non-European extraction have a higher predisposition for chronic life-shortening diseases, moron. I said blacks (of the sub-Saharan African variety we have here) and Hispanics (predominantly Mexicans that we have here) are sadly predisposed. North Africans are NOT predisposed. In fact, they pretty much eat a Mediterranean diet and obesity rates among them are much lower. [/b]

If that's true, and it's not related to poverty but to race, then Canada's health system which has its entire population (including minorities), outlive any group in the US including whites, is far and above outperforming the US system.

 

[Kassz007]

Quote from Angrycat:

Kazz,

You, by your own admission, have never been seriously ill. You have no clue what kind of healthcare you have.

Also, giving up beer, smokes, fast food and a 52 inch plasma seems a small price to pay for life saving treatment. Dontcha think? I mean if your life wouldn't be worth living without any of that, then you really have to question how empty your life is.

Besides, you're Canadian, so what you think of America's health care arrangements doesn't matter. You don't get a vote.

1. I don't need to have been seriously ill to know that my healthcare plan would cover me. I know people who have had serious operations and they don't pay for them. Some of them are/were on fixed incomes and surely would have died in the USA because they wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment.

2. You're missing my point. Beer, cigarettes, and TV's are just the example. A person should not have to choose between affording healthcare and affording to purchase certain items. It is possible to have the best of both worlds.

3. You're right, I am Canadian and my opinion and vote does not matter. My interest in the subject lies in convincing non-believers like you that the American healthcare system is terrible, and there are much better alternatives out there.

 

[NKNY]

Quote from Econmajor:

you do not have a right to food. You do not have a right to a house. You do not have a right to clothes. You do not have a right to good health. Just because they are basic needs doesn't give you a right to them.

You do have a right to protect your property though. No one can take something from you without consent. Therefore you have a right to own a gun to protect your life and property.

Very well put... People confuse basic needs with rights. This is why we are turning into a welfare state. Not the founders intentions.

 

[NKNY]

Quote from Moriartron:

As a Canadian now living and working here in the US for the past 10 years I feel I have a good grasp on the realities of both systems.

Having lived in both countries and experienced the 2 systems I can tell you that you Americans already have the better system here. Canadians are taxed beyond belief......in return they get terrible healthcare. But it's "free" (yeah right). You think you want that system because you imagine the US system here but "free". There is nothing worse than watching someone you love waiting 8 months for a treatment that would be taken care of here in a week. The average wait time in Canada is 5 months for surgery. Walk into an ER in Canada and ask some of them how long they have been waiting. "Days" Surely not? Yup - it happens all the time. My uncle waited 2 years to see a sleep specialist. My brother... almost a year for severe stomach pain. He was told to change his diet and "hopefully it wasn't cancer but he'd have to wait to see a specialist". Would you wait a year thinking you might have stomach cancer?? People only "think" they want socialized healthcare. Trust me you don't. Ironically the people that claim it's a right and want socialized healthcare will eventually realize that the goverment ends up restricting your access to procedures and tests - thereby infringing upon your rights. I have a hard time believing Americans here who have become accustomed to a much higher quality of healthcare would be satisfied with a socialized system. I hope and pray as a Canadian living here that Obama's healthcare system never sees the light of day.

How horrific that must have been to wait a year to see a specialist. I speak from experience when I started getting a constant pain in my lower abdomen for about a week. Finally I went to see my Dr who sent me for a cat scan or an MRi, don't remember exactly which it was, but I do remember he called up the imaging center and got me in within hours.

Sometimes we take what we have for granted and we want change just for the sake of change. I know our health care system isn't perfect, especially here in NY. But looking back on it, where else in the world would I have gotten a same day CAT scan and blood work.

Turned out to be nothing but gas...but what if it was serious. And consequently, they did did find a very small growth that they couldn't id on my liver and instructed me to keep checking it every year.

And another quick point, people without insurance are treated in emergencies. In my twenties I had gone numerous times to the ER and I was always treated. They even admitted me once for a few days even with out insurance.

Did I get a bill, yes, was I able to pay for it, no... But I wasn't left to die in the street...

Nick

 

[Angrycat]

Quote from bigdavediode:

If that's true, and it's not related to poverty but to race, then Canada's health system which has its entire population (including minorities), outlive any group in the US including whites, is far and above outperforming the US system.

And Canadians aren't the giant lardballs Americans are. All the medical care in the world isn't going to help you if you continue indulging in super-sized greasy meals.

It's that and the lack of exercise. Don't believe me? Check out how many years that kind of obesity shaves off your life. Over one third of Americans can barely waddle their substantial bulk up one flight of stairs

 

[Angrycat]

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

LOL, who pissed in your kool aid there princess...

i have left the united states, i'm living in montreal, and the standard of living is much higher than the overwhelming majority of the usa... and i've lived all over the usa... people here have much more disposable income, jobs are more plentiful, costs are lower, and wages are higher.... not to mention the women are alot hotter...

you keep clinging to this heatstroke issue desperately as a means to convince yourself that you have somehow not entirely lost this debate... but you have... it's a bit incredulous to say that since your family didn't die after moving to the south from moscow and compare that to the french heat strokes as being somehow analogous is more than a bit lacking in terms of intellectual integrity... they moved to the south, a region which regularly experiences and is well equipped to deal with extreme heat and humidity... you know how they freak the fuck out in the south when it snows ONE INCH? people die in car accidents at like 10x the normal rate? violent crime goes up et al? because the society isn't accustomed to it... they DO know how to deal with extreme heat... well, france isn't ACCUSTOMED to dealing with heatwaves... they have empirically enjoyed a very temperate climate and have very little experience with extreme temperatures.... unlike southerners they don't know that it's VERY important to stay cool, not be continually exposed to sunlight, and to stay very hydrated... why WOULD they know this?? it's fucking france! why would southerners know how to use chains and snowtires, and be prepared for a blizzard??? it's the fucking south!

pharmacy strikes aren't relevant to what we were talking about, it was simply a strawman of yours... my you do get testy when you have begun to loose a debate... is it "your time" or are you always this resentful when you loose arguments?

lol okay, you got me... i don't know what pharmacies dispense... sharp as tacks... i can see why you guys are comfortable in the south though, you are used to ugly people, inefficiency, and corrupt and incompetent government in your home country, so the south is a natural choice for you...

yes, you did cite people drinking wine instead of beer and liquor as a reason for the french being healthier and living longer... sorry, it's here for anyone to read... you can't backpedal on that one...

and it's not momo on the ET board saying so einstein, it IS the doctors and researchers who say that france has a longer lifespan than the vast majority of the rest of europe... as you can see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_the_CIA_World_Factbook_.282008_estimates.29


the nations i cited earlier in this thread: france and sweden, have the longest life expectancy in europe, and the vast majority of the world for that matter... so no, don't use "momo from the ET board" and in independent point of reference... use the CIA world fact book like wikipedia does, and momo from the ET board does


as for the other trivial semantics arguments you have tried to throw up as strawmen, they aren't worthy of a response... i don't care to debate the use of the word "muslim" in place of the word "arab" or any irrelevant bullshit like that... the point is, france has ALOT of arabs, and ALOT of subsaharan blacks... they have a huge minority population... still longer lifespans...

someone pass this one some MIDOL!!! lol

Momo, if it were MY time of month, that would be understandable. But, I think you'd better avail yourself of the brilliant medical system in Canada and get on a waiting list to see your GP to get your hormones checked right away because YOU shouldn't be you <i>shouldn't</i> be having that time of month. Sorry, chump, I know you rednecks get all excited about mentioning it, but I don't get all precious and insulted when someone mentioned my period. It is a fact of life that without your mother's you wouldn't be hear.

Look, while I sometimes "lose" debates, I never ever "loose" them because I don't speak your redneck English. I left the South, although I did live there for about 15 years. The fact that you are of inbred Georgia redneck stock explains why you have such terrible reading comprehension skills.

Enjoy Canada or wherever you live. The only debate you and I ended up having is where YOU prefer to live and look at hot women unattainable to you and where I prefer to lead a productive life. That's not a debate, that's a statement of preference.

So, I'm cutting you loose ('though it's been fun) to find someone else to harass because I have more productive conversations and activities to engage in. Later!

 

[Angrycat]

Quote from Kassz007:

1. I don't need to have been seriously ill to know that my healthcare plan would cover me. I know people who have had serious operations and they don't pay for them. Some of them are/were on fixed incomes and surely would have died in the USA because they wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment.

2. You're missing my point. Beer, cigarettes, and TV's are just the example. A person should not have to choose between affording healthcare and affording to purchase certain items. It is possible to have the best of both worlds.

3. You're right, I am Canadian and my opinion and vote does not matter. My interest in the subject lies in convincing non-believers like you that the American healthcare system is terrible, and there are much better alternatives out there.

1.) And I know just as many (I have family in Canada) who haven't. I know that certain medication and treatments aren't even available in Canada and - as an anecdote - my uncle has been waiting two years for a specialist for a pinched nerve that virtually prevents him from walking. An anecdote is not proof of anything - neither mine nor yours.

2.) There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't consume an unlimited amount or resources because while wants and needs are infinite, resources are finite. So, if you don't pay for your own healthcare, then I must give up something I wanted to pay for you. Somebody has to give up something so you can use those resources. You may not be the one giving it up, but someone is.

3.) Have you ever even been a patient in the American system to compare? I mean, you're making some pretty definitive statements, but I see no reason to think that you actually know anything about it (no offense, but...please tell us why we should take your assertions at face value). The American system is far far far from perfect. But, it can be better than the Canadian system. That's why I don't want the Canadian system The Singapore system is better.

 

[NKNY]

Quote from jueco2005:

From a philosophical point of view you are 100% right. But this is not philosophy 101. This is real life.

We are forced to pay for so many things that It doesn't bother me to pay for a million more.

If you oppose healthcare, you must also oppose having a city, state or federal police. You must also oppose the army, the border patrol, immigration and many other stuff that we normally pay for (way more than healthcare) without much bitching in forums like this one.

Health care is not a power delegated to the federal government by the constitution.

I read somewhere that Florida is going to have a vote in 2010 to exclude itself from any mandated health care system.

Also, states like Montana have passed states laws nullifying federal gun laws on guns made and used in Montana since they would not fall under intestate commerce.

Texas I believe is trying to pass a better, stronger similar law.

States are starting to stand up...it's about time...

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Angrycat:

And Canadians aren't the giant lardballs Americans are. All the medical care in the world isn't going to help you if you continue indulging in super-sized greasy meals.

It's that and the lack of exercise. Don't believe me? Check out how many years that kind of obesity shaves off your life. Over one third of Americans can barely waddle their substantial bulk up one flight of stairs

You ever notice how these American exceptionalism arguments quickly turn into "Americans suck" arguments to explain away why it can't do what every other industrialized country does?

Also, comparing similar populations (Washington versus across the border in Vancouver), white males in Washington state live to 76.8 years ( http://localhealthguideonline.com/w...cy-between-men-and-women-in-washington-state/ )

while across the border the average of the entire populace, including minorities, in Vancouver live over 81 years. ( http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/07/28/health_cities040728.html )