Removing the golden handcuffs

[They]

Max,

Could you list a few features your software will have that are not available from off the shelf charting packages?

As you know, most charting packages offer;

*Traditional indicators
*Back-testing capability
*Sim trading
*Live trading
*Trade automation

If you have something unique or novel I am sure there will be a niche for you. Kind of like MarketDelta did in the early 2000s or Jigsaw Trader has done of late.

I don't think you have the personality to be discouraged by others but as you said why would someone try and start another Google at this point and thus why would anyone want to start another average sim/charting package now?

I hope my question improves your product.

 

[MaxPastukhov]

Max,

Could you list a few features your software will have that are not available from off the shelf charting packages?

As you know, most charting packages offer;

*Traditional indicators
*Back-testing capability
*Sim trading
*Live trading
*Trade automation

If you have something unique or novel I am sure there will be a niche for you. Kind of like MarketDelta did in the early 2000s or Jigsaw Trader has done of late.

I don't think you have the personality to be discouraged by others but as you said why would someone try and start another Google at this point and thus why would anyone want to start another average sim/charting package now?

I hope my question improves your product.

Software business isn't about the number of features a product has. I can give you numerous examples of feature-rich products losing to simpler ones. It's the opposite: the less features you are trying to develop, the easier and more attractive your product becomes at the end. I will never compete with others using such lists. Focusing on simplicity is always better.

The same is true about novelty or uniqueness. I have got enough business experience to know that people like the idea of using someting new but they hate to change their habits and learn new interfaces. The more your product looks similar to the ones they got used to, the higher is the chance that people will actually like it.

Software business (not "software development") is about 2 things:
1. Can you find people who love (not "like") your product?
2. Can you make enough money out of it?

I've already achieved the first goal. About 80% of visitors of my website become users of the product, about 50% of them are happy about it and compose great testimonials when I ask them for a feedback.

As for the second goal, I have got a detailed plan which I'm following on a daily basis, adjusting it according to the market feedback. This time I'm sure that I'm really close to making a living out of it. After I finished in-depth market research and did some experiments, I found plenty of ways to make money here, aside from getting money directly from end users. As you may notice, I've finally made my product freeware but I still actively develop and promote it.

It seems to me that you are questioning my choice by comparing this market to the market Google got, or the market quants are trying to enter. Here is the difference: both Google and quantitative trading are zero-sum games. If you win, somebody must lose. People use only one search engine and when you win in trading, somebody is losing his money. Google, by the way, is already losing its share to some other players like Amazon, eBay, Facebook and others. Not in search, but in the share of advertising/online shopping market. It's people who spend their money, not some advanced AI or data centers.

Software market is different: traders use the number of tools and sources of information. There is no "one solution fits all", unlike in the search market. There will be no clear leader, there will always be the choice, especially when we are talking about niches. If you are going into this market with an idea of becoming The True Leader, you are doomed to fail from the very beginning. This market is great for making money, not for running a rat race.

The goal of a software business is to become profitable by developing something people will like and use, earning money out of it. If you are focused on making money on a daily basis, you can go far even with a mediocre product. Yes, it will be easier to earn more with the best all-dancing all-playing thing but it's not the goal. If you try to develop the best product first, you will always fail because others will get more customers and more money for business development with their far-from-perfect products.

On top of that, there are far more options for making money here other than making end users pay for your piece of code

PS: I also have a cool competitive advantage: I'm a greedy bastard I've saved so much and my current expenses are so low that I'm not a "startup".

 

[They]

Software business isn't about the number of features a product has. I can give you numerous examples of feature-rich products losing to simpler ones. It's the opposite: the less features you are trying to develop, the easier and more attractive your product becomes at the end. I will never compete with others using such lists. Focusing on simplicity is always better.

Ok, you do not plan to offer anything different from what is already out there. You are just trying to make your software simpler to use than what is currently in the market.

The same is true about novelty or uniqueness. I have got enough business experience to know that people like the idea of using someting new but they hate to change their habits and learn new interfaces. The more your product looks similar to the ones they got used to, the higher is the chance that people will actually like it.

Ok, you plan to make your software as similar as possible to what is already in the market so that people will be more likely to jump to your product.

Software business (not "software development") is about 2 things:
1. Can you find people who love (not "like") your product?
2. Can you make enough money out of it?

Well, lots of people like/love the sim/live/backtesting/automated/charting packages that are out there. Your business plan is to make a similar and simpler version of what is out there have people love it and get your piece of the pie.

I've already achieved the first goal. About 80% of visitors of my website become users of the product, about 50% of them are happy about it and compose great testimonials when I ask them for a feedback.

Congratulations, that is definitely an accomplishment in this oversaturated competitive market.

As for the second goal, I have got a detailed plan which I'm following on a daily basis, adjusting it according to the market feedback. This time I'm sure that I'm really close to making a living out of it. After I finished in-depth market research and did some experiments, I found plenty of ways to make money here, aside from getting money directly from end users. As you may notice, I've finally made my product freeware but I still actively develop and promote it.

That's great that you have figured out creative new ways to monetize a simpler and similar version of off the shelf trading software. This is probably a more important step than your first goal being that there are really no known examples of people making a living off of stand alone sim trading software.

It seems to me that you are questioning my choice by comparing this market to the market Google got, or the market quants are trying to enter. Here is the difference: both Google and quantitative trading are zero-sum games. If you win, somebody must lose. People use only one search engine and when you win in trading, somebody is losing his money. Google, by the way, is already losing its share to some other players like Amazon, eBay, Facebook and others. Not in search, but in the share of advertising/online shopping market. It's people who spend their money, not some advanced AI or data centers.

Please don't misunderstand me, I was just curious to why, as the developer of the product, you thought your product was better than what was out there and the niche it might fill. You have answered above. I only used the Google example because you had used it yourself. I am a firm believer that David has the ability to be nimbler than Goliath.

Software market is different: traders use the number of tools and sources of information. There is no "one solution fits all", unlike in the search market. There will be no clear leader, there will always be the choice, especially when we are talking about niches. If you are going into this market with an idea of becoming The True Leader, you are doomed to fail from the very beginning. This market is great for making money, not for running a rat race.

The goal of a software business is to become profitable by developing something people will like and use, earning money out of it. If you are focused on making money on a daily basis, you can go far even with a mediocre product. Yes, it will be easier to earn more with the best all-dancing all-playing thing but it's not the goal. If you try to develop the best product first, you will always fail because others will get more customers and more money for business development with their far-from-perfect products.

On top of that, there are far more options for making money here other than making end users pay for your piece of code

Again, my question was a simple and straight forward one. I thought you answering itbwould help you in your own focus. I am rooting for you Max.
Around 13 years ago I tried to bring a back-testing engine of traditional indicators, Market Profile and micro volume profiling for non-coders to market with a couple of partners. I understand what a herculean task it can be.

PS: I also have a cool competitive advantage: I'm a greedy bastard I've saved so much and my current expenses are so low that I'm not a "startup".

 

[MaxPastukhov]

That's great that you have figured out creative new ways to monetize a simpler and similar version of off the shelf trading software. This is probably a more important step than your first goal being that there are really no known examples of people making a living off of stand alone sim trading software.

Forex Tester - about $10,000,000 in the last 10 years.
Yes, their earnings significantly dropped recently, but they are still alive

Again, my question was a simple and straight forward one. I thought you answering itbwould help you in your own focus. I am rooting for you Max. Around 13 years ago I tried to bring a back-testing engine of traditional indicators, Market Profile and micro volume profiling for non-coders to market with a couple of partners. I understand what a herculean task it can be.

As you personally know, there is nothing complex in this task from a software development point of view. It took me just about 2 months to develop the initial version of Forex Simulator and yet another month to polish it according to its first users' feedback.

I came to this market, knowing that the most complex task will be to make money out of it. That's why my plans and schedules aren't about new features. 2 hours of market research in the morning each and every day (I use Pomodoro techinque to track time), followed by active marketing activities. I develop only those features people actually requested and try to spend not more than 10% of my time coding.

If you enjoyed market research in the past as I do, you would not give up on the project. It just a question of right priorities. I was successful in my previous ventures not because I'm good in software development but because I always forced myself to achive small marketing goals on a daily basis, no matter how I hated it initially. I stayed in the office until I made a single sale, no matter how long it actually took to achieve it. There are always plenty of ideas of how to make few bucks here and there, if you are really focused on the goal.

Then, after you start getting first positive feedback from the market, it becomes much easier and even fun.

Yet another trick is enforcing the right motivation. While I've got enough savings, I forbid myself to use them. I'm trying to live only from what I can actually make from the current business. I know that I would develop and promote this business infinitely if I try to live from my savings alone. External motivation is always much stronger than any kind of internal one

 

[MaxPastukhov]

Here is an interesting and important pattern I found between all people questioning an idea of getting into software business. I heard it numerous times from my friends when I tried to convert them into my "relegion".

So, the most often objection is: "I can't develop something better or unique in the market".

Here is the thing: there is always a choice between working for others and doing the same inside your own business. If we look at the problem from this point of view, the answer is clear: you don't need to become the leader in order to feed yourself and your family. On top of that, each minute of your time builds YOUR product and YOUR company, not somebody else one.

If becoming "yet-another-one" is a problem for you, don't go for it. There is a high chance that your competitors will always be better in everything: they will develop better products, earn more money, work in better offices, invest more into marketing, get more free/paid publicity, etc.

For me, personally, 1-2 years of time I invested at the very beginning of my work career into building my business translated into the next 10 years of absolute freedom. I spent almost all these 10 years sitting at the local park reading interesting books, meeting with my former colleagues in the evenings to drink beer. Or developing some new projects just for fun. Or looking for new business ideas.

At the moment, I'm working really hard for 12-14 hours a day without weekends. But I also know that it will last for the next 6-12 months only, after which I will get yet another 10-20 years of freedom

PS: Here is yet another pattern worth mentioning: each and every successful software business I met in my life had at least one person in their founding team who were fond of marketing and earning money in general. If you have nobody like that, better look for such person first, long before writing the very first line of code. Even if he/she doesn't have prior marketing experience but is really eager to learn and experiment, it's OK as well. I was like that in the past

 

[tsgiannis]

Very interesting thread...
IMHO i think that if you have/will have a killer product then forget about selling it as a normal software(copies)...it just won't get the money you are dreaming...and if its actually making money ...then you will make just one sell...just one and only one will spend the money and that's all... *the buyer*...think it a bit like Minecraft...(2BN buy from Ms -- Single Buy --).
Selling it by copies ...maybe it will get you around for some short time before some smart kid in a dark room cracks your protection (you would need to protect it somehow in order to sell it) and spreads it to the world...
If it is the KILLER product then...forget everything about selling/buying and everything....just automate it to work 24/7/365 and let it run....slowly but steadily it will get you the money....

 

[Aquarians]

I started off with my current company in support helping customers debug their apps which used the SDKs we sold. Next worked as "Buildmaster", in charge of packaging all of our SDKs and apps into installers. Then spent quite awhile working on the company internal systems (CRM/ERP, etc), customer facing web apps and product licensing infrastructure (all Microsoft stack....C#). For the past couple of years I have been working on a workflow SAAS product which is all javascript based (Node/React) having a micro-service architecture. Also worked on CI/CD pipelines for all of our products.

A lot of operations and not that much programming.

Perhaps you already did what I'm going to say but before quitting your job it would have been a good idea to:

1) Make sure you are *generally* employable.

Apply to generic IT jobs matching your experience: web, CRM / ERP. The market is very fragmented, employers list a cacofony of languages, frameworks, technologies and what else and couldn't care less about the product you worked on, they only care about *theirs*.

"Highly skilled at Node.js and related technologies including Meteor/ Blaze, RESTful web services, JSON, React, Python, Django, Oauth, Express, React, Redux, Redux Sagas, Webpack, SASS, Jest, Koa, AWS Lambda, Google Cloud Pub/Sub, Kafka, RabbitMQ, CircleCI, Kubernetes, Docker, MySQL, PostgreSQL, MongoDB, Redis, TestRail, Ember and Cordova".

I sure hope you know them all and a lot more since that's a post for a single job paying $40,000 / year.

2) You aim for finance, check if you're employable in finance.

Apply for finance jobs. Stuff like:

- BS or advanced degree in Computer Science, Mathematics, Physics or similar technical field
- Expert C++ (5+ years’ experience) Unix Platform
- Deep understanding of networking programming, low latency and high throughput issues & challenges
- Comfortable implementing domain-optimized data structures and complex mathematical algorithms
- Strong Systems designing on Unix platform (2-5+ years)
- Strong Java on Unix platform (1-3+ years)
- Demonstrated knowledge of GDB and profiler tools (oprofile, valgrind)
- Experience with options market making or flow derivatives trading a plus
- Experience working with large data sets
- Strong TCP/IP programming on Unix and Linux platforms (1-2+)
- Strong systems programming on Unix and Linux platforms
- Working knowledge of shell (bash) and perl scripting languages
- Strong Unit Testing and Regression Testing on Unix and Linux platforms
- Experience with command-line editors (emacs, vi)

3) Do a smoke test with your software product.

Try to sell it to the guys who know. Finance companies who also have the money, not clueless and cashless retailers. Send cold-spam mails to hedge funds, investment banks, proprietary trading desks. Call them. Try to reach them by any means (figure them out). See if out of 1,000 "applications" you get at least ONE "interview" (they're interested in at least hearing more about it).

============

I did all of the above and only had *few* problems with #1. Trying #2 and #3 has taught me that if I'm to succeed in this branch, it's gonna be solely by my own capabilities. No pipe dreams of selling cucumbers to the gardener.

 

[fan27]

A lot of operations and not that much programming.

Perhaps you already did what I'm going to say but before quitting your job it would have been a good idea to:

1) Make sure you are *generally* employable.

Apply to generic IT jobs matching your experience: web, CRM / ERP. The market is very fragmented, employers list a cacofony of languages, frameworks, technologies and what else and couldn't care less about the product you worked on, they only care about *theirs*.

"Highly skilled at Node.js and related technologies including Meteor/ Blaze, RESTful web services, JSON, React, Python, Django, Oauth, Express, React, Redux, Redux Sagas, Webpack, SASS, Jest, Koa, AWS Lambda, Google Cloud Pub/Sub, Kafka, RabbitMQ, CircleCI, Kubernetes, Docker, MySQL, PostgreSQL, MongoDB, Redis, TestRail, Ember and Cordova".

I sure hope you know them all and a lot more since that's a post for a single job paying $40,000 / year.

2) You aim for finance, check if you're employable in finance.

Apply for finance jobs. Stuff like:

- BS or advanced degree in Computer Science, Mathematics, Physics or similar technical field
- Expert C++ (5+ years’ experience) Unix Platform
- Deep understanding of networking programming, low latency and high throughput issues & challenges
- Comfortable implementing domain-optimized data structures and complex mathematical algorithms
- Strong Systems designing on Unix platform (2-5+ years)
- Strong Java on Unix platform (1-3+ years)
- Demonstrated knowledge of GDB and profiler tools (oprofile, valgrind)
- Experience with options market making or flow derivatives trading a plus
- Experience working with large data sets
- Strong TCP/IP programming on Unix and Linux platforms (1-2+)
- Strong systems programming on Unix and Linux platforms
- Working knowledge of shell (bash) and perl scripting languages
- Strong Unit Testing and Regression Testing on Unix and Linux platforms
- Experience with command-line editors (emacs, vi)

3) Do a smoke test with your software product.

Try to sell it to the guys who know. Finance companies who also have the money, not clueless and cashless retailers. Send cold-spam mails to hedge funds, investment banks, proprietary trading desks. Call them. Try to reach them by any means (figure them out). See if out of 1,000 "applications" you get at least ONE "interview" (they're interested in at least hearing more about it).

============

I did all of the above and only had *few* problems with #1. Trying #2 and #3 has taught me that if I'm to succeed in this branch, it's gonna be solely by my own capabilities. No pipe dreams of selling cucumbers to the gardener.

#1 is in the bag. I know what my skills are and have a good reputation among colleagues in my area. Also, the job description you posted would be $100,000 minimum per year in my local job market (not $40,000). The market is so hot that kids are starting at between $50,000 and $60,000 out of university with not that much experience.

Regarding #2, there are likely domain specific things in finance that perhaps I would not qualify for. Not really concerned about those opportunities.

For #3 and my own product, I am the smoke test. The idea is to use my technology to generate and maintain strategies to profitably trade my own account. If I can't do that, I don't have a viable product. If I can, it passed the smoke test. The technology is already vastly exceeding my expectations. Another option I have is to not sell the technology but instead use it (along with a track record) as a marketing feature for raising capital. That is something I don't have experience with though while building and selling software is something that I do have experience with. For the raising capital part, I would likely have to partner up with someone who has experience in that arena.

 

[Aquarians]

#1 is in the bag. I know what my skills are and have a good reputation among colleagues in my area. Also, the job description you posted would be $100,000 minimum per year in my local job market (not $40,000). The market is so hot that kids are starting at between $50,000 and $60,000 out of university with not that much experience.

OK, part of the skills sausage was a joke, same like $40,000 / year before taxes for a developer in general (not just the one who's missing one or two of those "skills").

Actually I've seen both similar lists and similar salary quotes and not just in Europe, although I must say I do 98% of my searches here, but also in the US. Try looking for jobs in "Chicago" or "Denver" or "Cincinnati" and you'll see them too. Not everybody lives in New York or Palo Alto.

Anyways, that's one thing having seen jobs listing where you evaluate yourself as competent for (I'd make a ton of money if I played that game) and a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY trading them for real and not just on paper (as in your head).

Did you actually APPLY FOR THOSE JOBS? And like got 3 or 4 positive answers (they'd hire you) but you rejected them? (To politely reject an application that turns better than you must initially hope, remember they're wasting their time as much as you're wasting yours for the interview, you can always raise the bar. Ask for 50% more on their initial salary offer, which is more than your current salary anyways. If they balk, good, you haven't lost anything. If they hold, that's where it gets interesting. You'll have to find for yourself from this point on, though).

So:

1) Have you or have you not *actually* applied for those hot jobs hiring hot college kids straight from the college at $100k+?
2) How many interviews have you got?
3) How many job offers were you offered?

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Aquarians]

Shit, this brainstorm just made me reckon I actually like the interviews game - as long as my personal long term average gain from it is in the 200%. And getting a strong preference lately towards shorting that long term.

Anyways, interviews suck and always remember they're only a means to an end, for me 20,000,000,000%. And not in Venezuelan dollars.