Yes, Darvas was a investor/speculator - Livermore was a trader. They both made a fortune in the stock market. Darvas kept his fortune, and died as a rich man. Livermore lost his fortune, made a new, lost it. He died as a poor man. As they said in old times: All traders die poor...
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator...
- Thread starter alanack
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Yes, Darvas was a investor/speculator - Livermore was a trader. They both made a fortune in the stock market. Darvas kept his fortune, and died as a rich man. Livermore lost his fortune, made a new, lost it. He died as a poor man. As they said in old times: All traders die poor...
I believe Hydro was referring to Darvas.
I enjoy threads about Darvas and Livermore because it always seems as though most of the participants read different books. How often, for example, does anyone point out the amount of luck involved in Darvas' "investing"? How much of it was just a plain old windfall? For example, the warrants.
As for being trite, Wyckoff and Livermore may seem like nothing new now, but a hundred years ago, their views were hardly widespread. Nothing is trite the first time you hear it.
Ok first of all, we are talking about books of trading NOT investing. Darvas's writings reminded me of O'Neil (who obviously learned from Darvas's stop methodology), great for investing but soso for trading. Livermore led a lifestyle of a trader, he could and did take money of the market close to everyday while Darvas kept his professional career as a dancer as he pursued investing & speculating. A bear market would have taken Darvas out of the game.
Livermore led an expensive, exciting & risky lifestyle after all, he even says that it becomes more about the game not the money. I am not promoting all of his decisions but then neither was he.
The "All traders die poor" comment is just a joke. Most, yes.
Most investors die poor also, the average joes dabbling in the market and putting money in their pensions are investors as well. Speculation is centuries old, it would not be around unless some individuals & entities were benefiting from it. I would not consider the 200+ year existence of NYSE as poor, would you? How about Soros? Steve Cohen?
Before Livermore shot himself, he said he's life as speculator was a failure. He also said that if he had only bought/sold stocks 3-4 times in a year, he would have been a very rich man. I think Darvas learned this lesson from Livermore.
The quote from old times:
"All traders die poor. If a trader die rich, he die before his time".
Sooner or later the market will destroy you...
Oh yeah in retrospect it's soooo easy to figure out what you should have bought and held. It's so easy yet the investing sheep still manage to lose their life savings every market cycle.
If you honestly believe that the real money on Wall Street was made by investing and not trading, god help you in the market. A power player like Goldman Sachs did not get to where they are now by looking for good blue chips to invest in.
Livermore was a failure because he never was able to fully control his mistakes that kept setting him back. Instead of being closeminded and assuming that trading is for failures, try learning from his mistakes. The book is heavy on mistakes & failures rather than the standard marketing pitch of how to make easy millions in the stock market with a few simple rules.
Try realizing that Livermore went from being a quote boy to making relative absurd sums in his teens. Consider his lifestyle and wonder whether he would have led a similiar life by being the average joe shmoe working in an urban factory.
Tell me, do you even trade? Do you know what it means to make a living from the market? I know it sounds so easy to just invest but how do you plan on living if ur capital is tied up in a stagnant or bear market?
Bravo. I always wondered about those posts like "yeah, Livermore just pushed his luck and won, and then couldn't keep it, he is failure". If anyone thinks it's that easy, why won't he simply do the same, making couple hundered millions AND QUIT? That'll show that poor soul Livermore...
Good point about the book being heavy on mistakes. While it makes it so valuable, maybe this is what at the same time creates a feeling for some that Livermore did nothing but mistakes, I don't know...
As for Darvas... well, different strokes for different folks. I for one learned zilch from Darvas' book and, aside form entertaining story, I see no value in it whatsoever. For me that is, before some Darvas fan dashes at my throat
Quote from Threei:
Bravo. I always wondered about those posts like "yeah, Livermore just pushed his luck and won, and then couldn't keep it, he is failure". If anyone thinks it's that easy, why won't he simply do the same, making couple hundered millions AND QUIT? That'll show that poor soul Livermore...
Good point about the book being heavy on mistakes. While it makes it so valuable, maybe this is what at the same time creates a feeling for some that Livermore did nothing but mistakes, I don't know...
As for Darvas... well, different strokes for different folks. I for one learned zilch from Darvas' book and, aside form entertaining story, I see no value in it whatsoever. For me that is, before some Darvas fan dashes at my throat
Livermore: "A good trader never goes broke" (Richard Dennis).
Darvas: No value? Ask O'Neill. He stole it all (CANSLIM) from Darvas.