Remaining Emotionless While Trading?

Okay:
I have one general comment that might help.

Just speaking for myself. I remember my state of mind when getting filled. I remember "tick watching". I remember talking to the screen just like the previous poster. I remember (and this is my main point) the feeling of OVERWHELMING FEAR freezing me. I could see price moving to my stop, but I couldn't make myself hit the eject button. I was holding on, thinking I would get out as soon as I got back a few ticks, then when I did get them back, I would ask myself, what if it goes back into the black? I have to hold on, and well you all know what happens then, it simply drops like a rock and I am screwed.

It is that feeling of overwhelming fear that you have to guard against. You have to be able to take a step back, to acknowledge that you are afraid (or whatever you are feeling) and then you have to take control of yourself and be ready to act.

Its been a long time, but I remember that feeling of cold sweat on my neck. I am glad to be over that one.

Hope it helps someone.
Steve
 
Quote from mizer:

Well its various things.......when I get in a long position I say things like get the F**K up there you POS. Then its various complaints about fills,etc. It seems like all day I'm frustrated about missing moves that I hesitated on making a trade in and I'm constantly talking to myself and the screen and I just want to know what other traders do to relax while trading and not get so uptight?
More...

mizer -

i don't want this to sound defamatory, so bear with me for a moment. do you behave this way outside of trading? driving? have you behaved like this in other jobs/careers/etc? hobbies?

there are plenty of traders who are just that way - trading or not. it's almost like that's how they HAVE to trade. a peaceful meditative calm would drive them nuts. i know guys who are just as high-strung while they trade today at age 60 as they were when they started on the floor 30 or 40 years ago.

also, and FT71 might provide some better insight on this aspect, scalping can be very much like a video game. a LOT of people get very wrapped up in gaming and are prone to the same type of profane outbursts/thoughts you describe. really, scalping or otherwise, it has all the traits of a video game - the hardware, colors, sounds, movement, eye-hand coordination, and so on.

anyway, whether it is a normal part of your personality, a result of the game-like atmosphere of this job, or otherwise, the bottom line is rather straight-forward: you have more control over these behaviors than the market. if you think it may be impacting your trading/health/life, make the decision to do something about it and do something about it.

hth

take care :)

omni

BTW: i think FT71 has posted before about meditative techniques he uses or at least the benefits of meditation in trading; it may be worth your while to look into these techniques. and i mention FT because i know:

1. he scalps consistently and profitably
2. he is very professional in his trading and his demeanor
3. he is a well-respected ET member
 
There you go. In my view it is about just that. That is why I suggest that you have to avoid the feeling of being overwhelmed.
If you can step back, and become an observer, you have a chance to control the situation (and your emotions).

Good luck
Steve
 
i'm glad steve and FT are contributing to this thread. they both have a lot to bring to the table in the form of experience. i hope other seasoned traders decide to add to the thread as well.

i think FT made a great point regarding listening vs. talking. it's no secret that a person's ability to thoroughly absorb incoming information drops significantly when they talk or even when they are THINKING of what they are going to say. i imagine this effect is greatly exaggerated in trading because the information can be deceptively quiet. unfortunately, the market does always (often) give an actual verbal signal that is about to do something. in fact, when it is the most quiet is when it is 'talking' the loudest.

and i would add to steve's observation the element or illusion of control. it is too painfully easy to get into trades thinking you have control over yourself when in reality it's unchecked hope to control the market that is waiting to ruin your day. the market does not care about you, your trades, your goals, your account, it doesn't even know you. and it will have a far better chance of pushing you to act than vice versa. you are not in this to control the market. you are in this to attentively listen to the market as it tells you what to do.

hth

take care :)

omni
 
My solution is I walk away after placing my contingency orders, and yes sometimes I do go meditate.

If i hear the "ping" of an executed stop loss it helps me accept it more easily without the self beratement cycle or blaming "the market".
 
Hello:

Always nice to consider thoughtful comments on this subject.

I think that all we CAN control is our emotional state. It is hard to develop that discipline, but one can do it. I learned how by hard experience and with the help of others. It took years. Today I can key in a limit buy and when it gets hit, my pulse doesn't change a bit. I know where my max loss is, and where I might add or close out and what to do if all hell breaks loose.. I realize that I am a limited human being trying to make my way in this business but I also know that I have prepared as well as anyone can. Also I have a track record of success to draw on. I think these are the kind of things that one has to focus on when trading.

Regards,
Steve
 
Longer time frames have made it much easier for me to deal with the uncertainty.

When I was less experienced I used 1-min candles. Every tick seemed important and the tape was consuming my entire concentration. It really wore me out and I now believe it created an emotional need to do something (read: overtrade) all the time. The end result would be me taking greater risk and suffering emotionally as well as financially. I was trying much too hard and really just tripping over myself.

I eventually learned the type of patience required to do nothing and how to accept the market movement without bias. It's very difficult to learn this patience because it is more elusive than simply waiting for really high quality trades. Things like accepting loss and ignoring market noise are learned emotional responses just like patience is. They take time to develop - you have to be able to self analyze and find/fix the embedded crap in your head that's causing these destructive emotional responses. Its tough and every person goes through a different process.

For me, a combination of changes in timeframe (I started only looking at 3,5 and 30 minute charts only. I never use the 1 or 2 minutes) and, frankly, a few years of experience made me apathetic to gain/loss. While I like seeing a position take off in my direction, it doesn't get me excited anymore.

So in short, this probably comes down to the old cliche - find a trading style that works for you. I found that shorter time frames were not for me.
 
From my experiences with trading (not as notable as most here)I simply had to lose the stress/pressure/fear of being wrong and immediately exit the trade, reaccess the atmosphere to either find another set-up or enter in another time/mind frame.

I generally don't complain when I'm outside and it's cold, however, if several people are with me and they complain about the cold, sometimes I catch myself complaining too.

A childish analogy perhaps but I feel emotions become unbridled and venting more pronounced when others are present and boundaries are not defined or enforced.

They also tend to escalate.

You are in control of your emotions not the market;

but you already know this.

React but don't be reactive.
 
i meant to ask earlier, what type of timeframe and scalp target do you use? scalping can mean different things to different people. i have friends who 'scalp 'the ES for 1-3 ticks and i have friends who 'scalp' it for 1-3 points.

people have brought up some very powerful forces that can severely impact your trading (positively or negatively). listening vs. talking. fear recognition. illusion of control. loss acceptance. ability to accept being wrong. fear of isolation (trade takes off without you or takes off as it goes against you - either way you're left alone, not on the trade). a lot of stuff is going on.

emotionality is important to really understanding the market. the market is HUGE pot bubbling with emotions. when the market starts to rally, it's important to understand the prevailing mentalities. the sidelined longs don't want to miss the boat, so they jump on. the shorts start sweating, so they bail, adding fuel to the movement. next you have another wave of late-comer sidelined longs jumping on the movement. after a couple of iterations, the folks who started it all will very likely be reversing and you'll get to witness the same series of emotional reactions, but on the way down. a healthy understanding of emotionality lets you comfortably stick to your plan and do what you need to do. it also helps you step back, look at the masses (remember, over 80% are supposed to be losing in order to pay the 20% winners), and not be like them. do what successful traders do. don't do what losers do. save your mental energy for trading. any amount of mental resources spent on all this other stuff means less mental resources for being in the 'zone' and trading your plan.

of course, i think everyone here is trying to help, assuming you have recognized an unwanted behavior. it may turn out, like other long-time and successful traders, you decide your trading is so robust it can very comfortably tolerate this type of distracting and limiting behavior. it's your call.

well mizer, quite a few people have thoughtfully and experientially addressed your situation. i hope some of it will be helpful to you. hth

take care :)

omni
 
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