Religion is a hypothesis.

Has science found the end of the universe?

LOL!!!

No.

For all we know, the universe is unlimited, infinite in energy and size...

So an infinite unlimited universe just came out of something like an explosion, you know, some big bang...

Hmmm....

Every explosion I've seen or heard of came from something, something of a limited size and energy...

But the scientists hold onto some wild guess that something that is infinite and unlimited came out of nothing?

It just happened, by chance, without a plan?

Don't they know that the source of something unlimited and infinite (the universe) had to also be unlimited and infinite in potential to produce something called the universe?

Uhhh...apparently not, nor is it important to them.

What is salient, and now pay attention because this is the crux of their argument and their intent in all of this nonsense and dog and pony show...

...is that they want to portray human life as ultimately without meaning or design. Their goal is to kill the concept of a purpose of life coming from some design and higher purpose.

The goal is not some search for truth, the goal is to attack religion (which in many cases deserves attacking for the horror men in the name of religion have brought to humanity) so that man himself can be elevated to a God like status.

Scientists are then elevated to God like creatures, who have all the answers.

When you ask direct questions of the atheists who push anti religion theory to explain the science that is behind their belief system, they stammer and can't answer. They say "watch the You Tube video" or "read this book."

They don't own the knowledge themselves. They don't even know the math of the science prophets they push. They are absolutely no different in principle than the guys who show up at your door pushing Jehova.

However, they have as much right to their beliefs in their religion as anyone else. They should not be persecuted or denied the same freedoms of religion as anyone else. They have the constitutional right to their religion.

Sadly, like so many oppressed people who then become oppressors of other religions and beliefs, they refuse to come clean and just admit that they worship their own God, or they worship their own non God, it really doesn't matter as long as they live their life and don't try to stop others from living their life.

Real science will go on, discoveries will be made which will make fools of previous thinkers who were certain of their beliefs and theories...

...all the while the universe and the source of the universe continue unabated by it all...
 
Has science found the end of the universe?

LOL!!!

No.

For all we know, the universe is unlimited, infinite in energy and size...

So an infinite unlimited universe just came out of something like an explosion, you know, some big bang...

Hmmm....

Every explosion I've seen or heard of came from something, something of a limited size and energy...

But the theists hold onto some wild guess that something that is infinite and unlimited came out of nothing?

It just happened, by chance, without a plan?

Don't they know that the source of something unlimited and infinite (God) had to also be unlimited and infinite in potential to produce something called the universe?

Uhhh...apparently not, nor is it important to them.

What is salient, and now pay attention because this is the crux of their argument and their intent in all of this nonsense and dog and pony show...

...is that they want to portray human life as ultimately with design. Their goal is to imagine a purpose of life coming from some design and higher purpose.

The goal is not some search for truth, the goal is to attack science (which in many doesn’t deserve attacking for the benefits science has brought to humanity) so that man himself can be better understand the universe.

A theist will elevate themselves to God like creatures, who have all the answers.

When you ask direct questions of the theists who push religion theory to explain the pseudo-science that is behind their belief system, they stammer and can't answer. They say "watch the You Tube video" or "read this Bible book."

They don't own the knowledge themselves. They don't even know the math of the science. They are absolutely no different in principle than the guys who show up at your door pushing any other snake oil.

However, they have as much right to their beliefs in their religion as anyone else. They should not be persecuted or denied the same freedoms of religion as anyone else. They have the constitutional right to their religion.

Sadly, like so many oppressed people who then become oppressors of scientists and science , they refuse to come clean and just admit that they worship their own God, or they worship their own personal God, it really doesn't matter as long as they live their life and don't try to stop others from living their life.

Real science will go on, discoveries will be made which will make improve on previous thinkers who were certain of their beliefs and theories...

...all the while the universe and the source of the universe continue unabated by it all...
 
This is your best response?

This is your counter argument?

The best you can hope for is a tie?

That is perfect, because all arguments of religion (including your atheist/science religion) can only end in a tie...assuming honesty by both parties. Neither side can win the argument, they never have, they never will...

Which is absolutely fine by me, then we teach ID right along with atheist/science religion...

That is only fair...

p.s. Glad to see you have finally come out of the closet and admitted that you practice atheist/science religion...

Quote from stu:

Has science found the end of the universe?

LOL!!!

No.

For all we know, the universe is unlimited, infinite in energy and size...

So an infinite unlimited universe just came out of something like an explosion, you know, some big bang...

Hmmm....

Every explosion I've seen or heard of came from something, something of a limited size and energy...

But the theists hold onto some wild guess that something that is infinite and unlimited came out of nothing?

It just happened, by chance, without a plan?

Don't they know that the source of something unlimited and infinite (God) had to also be unlimited and infinite in potential to produce something called the universe?

Uhhh...apparently not, nor is it important to them.

What is salient, and now pay attention because this is the crux of their argument and their intent in all of this nonsense and dog and pony show...

...is that they want to portray human life as ultimately with design. Their goal is to imagine a purpose of life coming from some design and higher purpose.

The goal is not some search for truth, the goal is to attack science (which in many doesn’t deserves attacking for the benefits science has brought to humanity) so that man himself can be better understand the univers.

A theist will elevate themselves to God like creatures, who have all the answers.

When you ask direct questions of the theists who push religion theory to explain the pseudo-science that is behind their belief system, they stammer and can't answer. They say "watch the You Tube video" or "read this Bible book."

They don't own the knowledge themselves. They don't even know the math of the science. They are absolutely no different in principle than the guys who show up at your door pushing any other snake oil.

However, they have as much right to their beliefs in their religion as anyone else. They should not be persecuted or denied the same freedoms of religion as anyone else. They have the constitutional right to their religion.

Sadly, like so many oppressed people who then become oppressors of scientists and science , they refuse to come clean and just admit that they worship their own God, or they worship their own personal God, it really doesn't matter as long as they live their life and don't try to stop others from living their life.

Real science will go on, discoveries will be made which will make improve on previous thinkers who were certain of their beliefs and theories...

...all the while the universe and the source of the universe continue unabated by it all...
More...
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:

This is your best response?

This is your counter argument?

The best you can hope for is a tie?

That is perfect, because all arguments of religion (including your atheist religion) can only end in a tie...assuming honesty by both parties. Neither side can win the argument, they never have, they never will...

Which is absolutely fine by me, then we teach ID right along with atheist/science religion...

That is only fair...

p.s. Glad to see you have finally come out of the closet and admitted that you practice atheist/science religion...
More...
Not a tie.
Your argument says scientifc progress will continue to develop and improve, whilst religion has been dead in the water for thousands of years with no discoveries and teaching nothing, providing no substantial knowledge about the Universe, the way science does,

That's fine by me too. Teach ID in school. In Remedial art class maybe a good place .
 
Quote from stu:

You describe a Creator as unknowable but you know It does not exist in a Universe such as this one, and you know It is not a personality, and you know It created and orders the Universe. So that Creator is not actually unknowable, as you know things about It. This is getting like no belief is belief .

If it is illogical to think the Universe just happened as you say, it is equally illogical to think a Creator just happened. And a Creator which has always existed, begs the question then why wouldn’t the Universe have always existed.

When arguing the Universe needed to be created, you have no logical grounds to argue why a Creator wouldn’t need to be created.

From the explanation you give it is a little obvious that the "organizing force that created and orders the Universe" , a Creator, fits the role of the Universe itself.
More...

First of all I didn't say I knew anything. I just have an opinion.

Second, you keep thinking like a Human Being. You think in terms of cause and effect because that is how our observable universe appears to work. That's from thinking in terms of Time, beginning and endings. Outside of Time there is no Cause or Effect.

The only illogical thing here is that pure energy could by chance coalesce into the Universe as we know it.

Again, Atheists get hung up on this because deep down they are afraid of being judged for their Morals. Not that they are not Moral, just they are afraid of being judged.

Rather then overcome their illogical fears of being judged they subcribe to this bullshit about pure energy turning by chance into what we know as the universe.

Here , this guy is hard to read and I have not read it all but it will give you some idea of where I am coming from.

This guy is the guy who invented the Bell Helicopter.



http://www.arthuryoung.com/theory.html

http://www.arthuryoung.com/essays.html
 
Not a tie?

Looks like we have a sore loser in stu, who cannot even admit to a tie...

Unlike you, I can separate God from religion...and that which is true is never dead in the water...just dead to those with water on the brain.

For every serve of yours stu, there is a return of equal force...a law of nature in play for those moving in circles such as yourself...


Quote from stu:

Not a tie.
Your argument says scientifc progress will continue to develop and improve, whilst religion has been dead in the water for thousands of years with no discoveries and teaching nothing, providing no substantial knowledge about the Universe, the way science does,

That's fine by me too. Teach ID in school. In Remedial art class maybe a good place .
More...
 
At this point in the thread we can conclude that:
Hardcore religous zealots, the God creates earth in 7days, earth is 10,000 years old, the Flintstones should be on the History Channel...those types cannot defend their position with any degree of intellectual honesty.
Hardcore atheists, the there is absolutely no doubt, we are certain there is no God, are also in a position that cannot be defended intellectually.
Then there are the rest of us. I'd like to think that most participating in this debate are in the rest of us catagory.
So let's take this to the question that even believers like myself have trouble making sense of...THE DEVIL!
If you believe as I do, and science has proven, that for every action there is a equal but opposite reaction, there is matter and anti-matter, there is positive and negative energy, then it must follow that if there is a God, and this God is everything positive, then a Devil, everything negative, must exist as well.
This is where religion fell/falls apart for me. I cannot, and do not believe in the whole, heaven/hell, rewards and punishment deal. It just doesn't hold up under even the slightest reasoning. A creator cannot create me, know everything about me, leave me with nothing but faith to rely upon, and then be disappointed when I fuck up. That just doesn't make sense. It is also accepeted among most believers that nothing happens in Gods world by accident. Well, that's cool for the good things, but what about the 6 month old baby that's being ass fucked right now, and we all know it's happening. What about the ruthless murders going on at this very moment. This is all part of Gods plan? Nonsense.
So where does that leave us? For me, as a believer in God, I must accept the fact that a devil also exists. To do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest, given my position. How do I expalin it? I can't! My only thought is that God is not as powerful as most claim and the outcome is still up for grabs.
I know many will mock this portion of the debate and it will come from both sides, but for me it's a serious question than remains unanswered, and it really, really weakens the postion I take as a believer in God when I can't give any rational explanation in response to the question I so often get when debating the issue with my agnostic friends. The question of, so what about the devil smart guy, explain that. I can't!
 
Oh, I don't know what is so hard about your quandary.

This world is made of duality, opposing forces.

So there is a good guy, say Jesus the son of God, and a bad guy, say Lucifer a fallen angel.

The drama of good vs. evil is played out daily, and the one who put the play in motion (the producer) does nothing but observe. Good and evil, positive and negative, etc. is just the nature of this world, the nature of the cosmos, the nature of the universe.

God does not interfere with the process at all, it goes on by itself...that is the programming.

Good rises, evil falls...evil rises good falls...and the cycle of birth then death, creation and destruction, etc. continue forever.

God is beyond the simplicity of duality and good and evil, or you could say that God is absolute and our concept of good and evil exist only in relationship (relative) to each other.

God is the whole value, good and evil are the partial values. Whether is is a moral field, or a quantum field, it is just the interaction of the parts on a field (or stage).

Those who want to stay in the play don't actually seek God, as they like the play.

Those who want off the eternal play trip seek to be with God who is beyond the triviality of good vs. evil.

Quote from CaptainObvious:

At this point in the thread we can conclude that:
Hardcore religous zealots, the God creates earth in 7days, earth is 10,000 years old, the Flintstones should be on the History Channel...those types cannot defend their position with any degree of intellectual honesty.
Hardcore atheists, the there is absolutely no doubt, we are certain there is no God, are also in a position that cannot be defended intellectually.
Then there are the rest of us. I'd like to think that most participating in this debate are in the rest of us catagory.
So let's take this to the question that even believers like myself have trouble making sense of...THE DEVIL!
If you believe as I do, and science has proven, that for every action there is a equal but opposite reaction, there is matter and anti-matter, there is positive and negative energy, then it must follow that if there is a God, and this God is everything positive, then a Devil, everything negative, must exist as well.
This is where religion fell/falls apart for me. I cannot, and do not believe in the whole, heaven/hell, rewards and punishment deal. It just doesn't hold up under even the slightest reasoning. A creator cannot create me, know everything about me, leave me with nothing but faith to rely upon, and then be disappointed when I fuck up. That just doesn't make sense. It is also accepeted among most believers that nothing happens in Gods world by accident. Well, that's cool for the good things, but what about the 6 month old baby that's being ass fucked right now, and we all know it's happening. What about the ruthless murders going on at this very moment. This is all part of Gods plan? Nonsense.
So where does that leave us? For me, as a believer in God, I must accept the fact that a devil also exists. To do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest, given my position. How do I expalin it? I can't! My only thought is that God is not as powerful as most claim and the outcome is still up for grabs.
I know many will mock this portion of the debate and it will come from both sides, but for me it's a serious question than remains unanswered, and it really, really weakens the postion I take as a believer in God when I can't give any rational explanation in response to the question I so often get when debating the issue with my agnostic friends. The question of, so what about the devil smart guy, explain that. I can't!
More...
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

even believers like myself have trouble making sense of...THE DEVIL!
If you believe as I do, and science has proven, that for every action there is a equal but opposite reaction, there is matter and anti-matter, there is positive and negative energy, then it must follow that if there is a God, and this God is everything positive, then a Devil, everything negative, must exist as well.
This is where religion fell/falls apart for me. I cannot, and do not believe in the whole, heaven/hell, rewards and punishment deal. It just doesn't hold up under even the slightest reasoning. A creator cannot create me, know everything about me, leave me with nothing but faith to rely upon, and then be disappointed when I fuck up. That just doesn't make sense. It is also accepeted among most believers that nothing happens in Gods world by accident. Well, that's cool for the good things, but what about the 6 month old baby that's being ass fucked right now, and we all know it's happening. What about the ruthless murders going on at this very moment. This is all part of Gods plan? Nonsense.
So where does that leave us? For me, as a believer in God, I must accept the fact that a devil also exists. To do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest, given my position. How do I expalin it? I can't! My only thought is that God is not as powerful as most claim and the outcome is still up for grabs.
I know many will mock this portion of the debate and it will come from both sides, but for me it's a serious question than remains unanswered, and it really, really weakens the postion I take as a believer in God when I can't give any rational explanation in response to the question I so often get when debating the issue with my agnostic friends. The question of, so what about the devil smart guy, explain that. I can't!
More...

easy

The devil or Lucifer Fallen Archangel was created by God and vitally important in his plan using him as a contrast medium. Otherwise it's like having a black & white TV without the
black.

Good cannot exist without the concept of evil.

Satan is God's proctor, pass his tests you win.
 
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