Religion and Government

Right and wrong stand on their own under Law as set down by the representatives of the people.

stu
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This is mob rule. Unless there is a moral standard established to measure against the decisions by the popular mob is very dangerous. Unfortunately for the secularist most of these immutable moral standards come from the "religious" teachings.
 
The problem is there is no such entity as christian morality, which is reliable as a basis for law.

stu
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Of course this is more of your "right thinking".
 
alfonso,
Looking back through history, The Evidence (block letters and all :)) suggests most definitely that it is not desirable to have Law and religion connected, otherwise The Evidence would have clearly stated that it should be. There is no reference to a christian god, a creator god, or even a god other than nature's god ( would that be the universe or man himself??) It is certainly not god the father or any divinity. There is unambiguous reference to man's inalienable rights not god's, or rights given by god, a god or any god. It's what is in the document and what is missing from the document which makes it's intentions clear. Not what some christian would like to add to the document.

Stu, again, whether you like it or not isn't the issue. You're trying to argue doctrine. But that's another debate. The simple fact that is that, on the 'forest' level, Christians do basically agree about morality, namely that it is ordained from God. That's as far as "Christian morality" needs to go with respect to the law.
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No alfonso I am not. That a forest of christians believe morals come from god is up to christians. Others including many freethinking early settlers and including the Founding Fathers, considered man as the rational being and capable of determining from free exercise of rational judgement of what was right and wrong. It was the certainty that to reason right and wrong required freedom from any blind obedience to anything, and most certainly from a supernatural god, king or any religion.

Just where did I say anything about belief in what is right or wrong? how does it become hard for humanity to base what is right and wrong on what it believes to be so. I do say if the belief is sought from or based upon another belief which is corrupted, ambiguous and immoral, then that is no basis to form a system based upon morals. Despite the incongruity (putting it mildly) of religious "morality" moral standards are well capable of being established and were always within a rational understanding where religion is absented.

Yes most people know that some things are just wrong. Like Putting up a monument that has connection to a specific flawed concept. It would be more conducive I suggest to erect something which transcends emotional favor for example say ... scales of justice held by a blindfolded Lady of Liberty?? The permanent installation of a 3 ton graven image which lists things like Thy Shalt Have No Other God But Me in a courthouse is not what you could reasonably call fair is it?

To make a nativity statement about a mixed history of pagan religious superstition at a specific time of year is doubtful to say the least, but it might be cute. To do it in a school where other religious groups are allowed to make similar gestures is not unreasonable. These are different values altogether.

To make laws on the fly which themselves fly against any reasonable overriding principles implicit in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution - which are to keep state and religion separate - is as unfair as you can possibly get.
 
TM_Direct.
I am obliged to you :)

Doubter,

This is mob rule. Unless there is a moral standard established to measure against the decisions by the popular mob is very dangerous. Unfortunately for the secularist most of these immutable moral standards come from the "religious" teachings.
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Right and wrong under Law is not mob rule, unless you consider what you live under now is mob rule.

Show me an immutable moral standard which comes from the religious and is reliable as a basis for Law. Word of warning...watch out for that word immutable.
Of course this is more of your "right thinking".
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Then explain why it might not be.
 
First of all, I . . . rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. Samuel Adams, Signer of the Declaration


To my Creator I resign myself, humbly confding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution


I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of his mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ. Gabriel Duvall, U.S. Supreme Court Justice; selected as delegate to Constitutional Convention


This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. Patrick Henry


I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by his beloved Son. . . . Blessed be his holy name. John Jay, Original Chief-Justice U.S. Supreme Court


I am constrained to express my adoration of . . . the Author of my existence . . . [for] His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. Robert Treat Paine, Signer of the Declaration


I think it proper here not only to subscribe to . . . doctrines of the Christian religion . . . but also, in the bowels of a father's affection, to exhort and charge them [my children] that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness. Richard Stockton, Signer of the Declaration .
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My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God. [6] John Quincy Adams


Now to the triune God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore ­p; Amen.[7] Gunning Bedford, Signer of the Constitution


You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature ­p; the absolute necessity of a change of heart, and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ ­p; of salvation thro' His meritorious righteousness only ­p; and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. [8] Elias Boudinot, Revolutionary Officer and President of the Continental Congress (to his daughter)


You do well to learn . . . above all the religion of Jesus Christ. [9] George Washington


[D]on't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. [10] Jacob Broom, Signer of the Constitution (to his son)


On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. [11] Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration


I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. [12] Thomas Jefferson


I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice. [13] James Iredell, U.S. Supreme Court Justice under President George Washington


My only hope of salvation is in the infnite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! 14 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration


I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. [15] Roger Sherman, Signer of both the Declaration and the Constitution


I shall now entreat . . . you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for "there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12]. . . . f you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. [16] John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration
 
Quote from stu:

TM_Direct.
I am obliged to you :)

Doubter,


Show me an immutable moral standard which comes from the religious and is reliable as a basis for Law. Word of warning.
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"Thou shall not commit adultery"????? I think it's more of a law here then abroad
 
The oaths in our courts would be useless without "the sense of religious obligation."
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"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."
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"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
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Form Washingtons' farewell address.
 
The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.

Noah Webster
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John Witherspoon, President of Princeton and signer of the Declaration, declared:

[T]he Ten Commandments . . . are the sum of the moral law.

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As Chief Justice John Jay, an author of the Federalist Papers, explained:

The moral, or natural law, was given by the sovereign of the universe to all mankind.

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In the supposed state of nature, all men are equally bound by the laws of nature, or to speak more properly, the laws of the Creator. Samuel Adams, Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration

[T]he laws of nature . . . of course presupposes the existence of a God, the moral ruler of the universe, and a rule of right and wrong, of just and unjust, binding upon man, preceding all institutions of human society and government. John Quincy Adams

The law of nature, “which, being coeval with mankind and dictated by God Himself, is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this.” Alexander Hamilton, Signer of the Constitution

The “law of nature” is a rule of conduct arising out of the natural relations of human beings established by the Creator and existing prior to any positive precept. . . . [These] have been established by the Creator, and are, with a peculiar felicity of expression, denominated in Scripture, “ordinances of heaven.” Noah Webster, Judge and Legislator

The law of nature being coeval with mankind, and dictated by God Himself, is of course superior to and the foundation of all other laws. . . . No human laws are of any validity if they are contrary to it; and such of them as are of any validity, derive all their force and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from their original. William Findley, Revolutionary Soldier, Member of Congress

[The] law established by the Creator, which has existed from the beginning, extends over the whole globe, is everywhere and at all times binding upon mankind. . . . [This] is the law of God by which He makes His way known to man and is paramount to all human control. Rufus King, Signer of the Constitution, Framer of the Bill of Right

God . . . is the promulgator as well as the author of natural law. James Wilson, Signer of the Declaration and the Constitution, Original Justice on the U. S. Supreme Court

The transcendent excellence and boundless power of the Supreme Deity . . . [has] impressed upon them those general and immutable laws that will regulate their operation through the endless ages of eternity. . . . These general laws . . . are denominated the laws of nature. Zephaniah Swift, Author of America’s First Legal Text

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The founders obviously wanted nothing to do with God or religion.
 
Guys.....You two should just get a room together.LOL!...you have put a lot of thought and serious passion into this argument but i don't think you are going to agree...In the meantime will be unsubscribing...good luck
 
I think it was silly for them to pull the monument.

OTOH, those who think we need more religion in goverment should just consider what a disaster this would be. Look at all those Islamic nations that allow religious fundamentalists to control government. And don't think fundamentalists Christians would be any different.

g
 
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