Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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Originally posted by I Missed Boat

However, I do not believe that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive because if there is an omniscient God, it's omniscience could exist through a separate space and time, and in a realm outside our comprehension.
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hahahaha! you'll stop at nothing! :D


"ooh, yuck, i don't like the idea of my god being prone to fuck ups, i'll just pretend i didn't hear that".

i doubt you're an agnostic 'boat, i think you definitely believe in a god. a god you try to shield through incomprehensibility. i'm sure you're well aware that to then say "i believe in god" amounts to the same thing as saying " i believe in nothing in particular". good luck to you my friend.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m



hahahaha! you'll stop at nothing! :D


"ooh, yuck, i don't like the idea of my god being prone to fuck ups, i'll just pretend i didn't hear that".

i doubt you're an agnostic 'boat, i think you definitely believe in a god. a god you try to shield through incomprehensibility. i'm sure you're well aware that to then say "i believe in god" amounts to the same thing as saying " i believe in nothing in particular". good luck to you my friend.
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Well I'm glad you know what I know better than I do. Actually, you are dead wrong. I have doubts that there is anything responsible for the order in the universe, and I consider myself a permanent agnostic. I am not some person searching to "figure it out." Rather, I know that I will never know one way or the other, and therefore I don't think that I will ever have a strong (let alone definite) opinion either way. I accept this. I recognize what mathmaticians, physicists and philosophers have realized, that we are extremely limited and will never know or even comprehend the vast majority of the objective universe. To overlook the facts and believe otherwise is human arrogance. Thanks for the good luck wishes pal 'o mine.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
what is not ok, is for GOD to be wrong. if he says he knows exactly what i will do in the future, and he is NEVER WRONG - pay attention, cos this is the major point - then i have no choice at all but to take the kinds of actions that would result in that future. god can't be wrong. that is the crux of this issue. (mind you, to ME it would certain appear that i am exercising free choices, but in reality i would be just going through predetermined motions.)

if he knows what is going to be, then it MUST be. in that case free will is indeed an illusion. this is really elementary stuff. i think the only reason that you are failing to grasp it is because of your need to maintain consistency with wanting free will, and an infallible god.
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It isn't failure to grasp, just a genuine difference in how I see the world. The thing I would like to know is how you come to the conclusion that an omniscient god can be wrong? You say we MUST do so and so to prevent him from being wrong. I say that is simply faulty logic or a convoluted stretch at best. I challenge your premeses.

If the past, present and future are constantly in front of god's eyes, then how can he be wrong about the past present or future? And yet your conclusion rests upon the premise that he may be wrong if we don't do the right things, which contradicts the definition of omniscience. If we have to do the right things to make god remain omniscient then we are as powerful as god since we can determine his nature by our actions. This is a ludicrous conclusion.

An omniscient god will see what has happened, what is happening and what will happen in exactly the same way - it will all be truth. Rather than say we MUST do so and so or we will cause god to implode, I think the proper logic would say that we will make choices and the all-knowing is aware of those choices. To say if we don't do such and such then god will be wrong is to suppose a situation that simply isn't possible, and is thus illogical.

Give me an example of something that you could do that an omniscient god wouldn't expect?
 
Originally posted by TriPack


Give me an example of something that you could do that an omniscient god wouldn't expect?
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there couldn't be ANYTHING that i could do that would surprise an all-knowing god.

let's look at what "all-knowing" means. it means that this god knows EVERYTHING. there cannot be one little thing that he could not know. agreed?

he would know exactly what my thoughts are right now, and for every second from now till my death. he would know the actions i'm gonna be taking 5 seconds from now, 10 minutes from now, 2 hours from now, 50 years from now. at each point in the future he would know exactly what i will be doing. if he doesn't, then he doesn't know EVERYTHING.

hell, it would be a breeze for this all-knowing god to tell me know the name of every single person that is gonna exist in the world in the year 2343 and to know exactly what their future will be. agreed? he must know all this, otherwise he won't know EVERYTHING.

since he knows beforehand everything that will ever occur, there is no way for what he knows NOT to occur. it is impossible. if god says what the future will be like in 2050, there is NO WAY for it be any different than what god says it will be like.

now, for that future to be like god says it will be, man has to act in a certain way. doesn't he? of course he does. cos the future has to be how god said it will be, there is no possibility of him being wrong.

if god KNOWS i will be in japan on nov 1, i will be in japan on nov1, otherwise god will have been wrong. cos god must know RIGHT NOW where i will be on nov1. if i asked him right now, he MUST be able to tell me. otherwise i could say to him, "hang on god, you are supposed to know everything, how can you not know this???". so he HAS to know. since he knows where i will be on Nov 1, and he is NEVER WRONG, is it possible for me to take a plane to norway on oct31? no way!
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
now, for that future to be like god says it will be, man has to act in a certain way. doesn't he? of course he does. cos the future has to be how god said it will be, there is no possibility of him being wrong.
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I agree man will act in a certain way. However, is god forcing you to act in that certain way or are you freely choosing what you will do next? This is the part that tends to get ignored. The choice we make is a REAL CHOICE. It isn't a bogus choice that someone else has made for us in advance. God sees what we will do in the future. He doesn't make our future decision for us, he merely knows what we will do in the future. The choice part is totally up to us. We make the choice. We are the actors and thus we are free.

You may not like the fact that your choices are limited but the fact is that we are doing the choosing so we have free will.
 
Originally posted by TriPack


I agree man will act in a certain way. However, is god forcing you to act in that certain way or are you freely choosing what you will do next? This is the part that tends to get ignored. The choice we make is a REAL CHOICE.
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what part of this don't you get tripack:

i ask god, "what will tripack be doing on oct1"? since god knows everything that is going to happen, he tells me tripack will be doing X.

what will you be doing on oct 1 tripack? X right? if you do ANYTHING BUT X god would've been wrong. right?

now, tell me this, did you ever have the option of doing anything but X?

just answer me that.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m


i ask god, "what will tripack be doing on oct1"? since god knows everything that is going to happen, he tells me tripack will be doing X.

what will you be doing on oct 1 tripack? X right? if you do ANYTHING BUT X god would've been wrong. right?

now, tell me this, did you ever have the option of doing anything but X?

just answer me that.
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Yes I had the full menu of options and I chose to do X. Answer me this who made the decision to do X me or god in the above scenario?
 
Originally posted by TriPack


Yes I had the full menu of options and I chose to do X. Answer me this who made the decision to do X me or god in the above scenario?
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see that is exactly where the illusion part comes into it. because if you had chosen anything but X, god wouldn've been wrong. and that is not allowed.

let me use that Neil armstrong example again. god KNEW armstrong would be an astronaut.

ok? again, imagine i asked god and he told me that armstrong would be an astronaut.

we don't even have to discuss the choices armstrong made, we can just automatically KNOW that there never existed at any time the possibility that any kind of disaster, natural or otherwise, could have incapacitated armstrong. there was never the possibility of this. god KNEW that armstrong would be an astronaut, so to fulfill this "prophecy" (:)) there is no way anything bad could've happened to armstrong that would have prevented him from being an atronaut.

to armstrong, it will have seemed exactly as though he made all his choices. but that would obviously have been an illusion. he was merely acting out a prewritten script.
 
Originally posted by I Missed Boat

However, I do not believe that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive because if there is an omniscient God, it's omniscience could exist through a separate space and time, and in a realm outside our comprehension.
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COULD being the key word.

Zornoph COULD have created this universe.
My big foot COULD be god.
Little purple unicorns COULD exist in separate space and time.
Three headed demons COULD exit ouside of our human comprehension.

This is what bugs me about your position Boat.

You muddy the waters with a bunch of COULD's which
bring absolutely NOTHING to the table.

You have no rational reason to even CONSIDER such
nonsense, yet you consistently step in and mention
these silly notions. They are completely arbitrary
and unsupported.

peace

axeman
 
I don't have the time to counter respond to all
of your other posts Ive missed, so im gonna summarize instead.

Correct me anywhere Im wrong because im going to
paraphrase how I see a position you constantly jump into
arguments with.

It SEEMS thats your entire belief base stems from:
"I think therefore I am", followed by:
"We cant truly KNOW anything other than just that 100%".

You then attack logic and reason by pointing
at contradictions in mathematics.

Daniel correctly pointed out that this doesn't not invalidate
all of math and logic.

The interesting part to this all is that you even
partake in ANY debate at ALL since you SEEM believe
you cant "really know anything" outside of your own existence.

You also use human logic and reasoning to attempt
to show that human logic and reasoning is faulty.
Obviously, if it IS faulty, then your argument could
be faulty too for the very same reason.
This is quite humorous! :D

You also SEEM very hypocritical because you jump around
waving the "you cant know anything flag" all day long
yet you go on living life as if WE exist, the market exists,
your computer exists, etc etc etc

The fact is.... if you want to be very technical, your right,
we cant truly prove anything outside of "I exist" with 100% certainty.

But we know the universe is not black and white.
It is full of probabilities. There are very few absolutes, if any.

The PROBABILITY that this is all real, is assumed to be high.
We have no evidence to believe that is actually all an illusion.
We COULD simply all be brains in a jar connected to a super
computer. Or MAYBE we exist in the MATRIX, like in the movie.

But once again... there is no RATIONAL reason to believe
this is the case. We have to work within our KNOWN
universe. We have no evidence to support such nonsense.

In the end.... would it even MATTER that we actually exist
in a MATRIX like world? Nope. You still gotta play by
the rules. You still have to learn to think clearly etc etc.

If you want to strictly stick to your "We can only know
that we exist" position. Then fine. But don't bother
partaking any further in these discussions. We all understand
your position.


peace

axeman
 
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