Regarding the Existence or Absence of God
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hey axe buddy, I've covered them SEVERAL times in the past! have you been skipping pages?? I don't just "simply assert" things. no "empty assertion" here, so why don't you fucking read what I say before you make such an accusation. The fact is that we are limited in what we can understand, and the closest tool we can use to studying and observing the objective universe is mathematics. However, math itself has contradictory foundations (Russel's Paradox, Goedell's Theorem, etc) Therefore, to use not even math but some semantic games to argue against an infinite and all-powerful being is rediculous. If you ask whether God can create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it, then the answer is "if he wants to." If you say, well can he lift a rock so heavy that he can't lift it even if he wants to, then the answer is no.....BECAUSE HE CAN DO ANYTHING!! That is where such a semantic game leads! Playing with deep concepts by using (or misusing) the limited communication skills of an extremely finite infitessmal being that ultimately knows nothing for sure (except that each of us exists) is rediculous! It discredits nothing!
Originally posted by TriPack
Well maybe it does make sense. If god provided incontrovertible hard proof that could be scientifically examined and that would convince everyone on the earth that he exists, then this act would by its very nature remove part of man's free agency.
Not at all.
I can show you a bunch of people who believe that
Benny Hin has magical healing powers, and no matter
how much evidence I showed them that this could
NOT be true, they would still believe.
People reject reality ALL THE TIME.
Look at religious people for example
All other scientists are put through this scrutiny.
Why should your god be a special case?
As if an omniscient/omnipotent god would need
any help!
Again this would eliminate man's free will and we would be puppets on a string because we could not choose to not believe.
Non sequitor.
Again... I can show you many examples of people
blatantly rejecting reality.
God could show someone undeniable proof of his
existence and I guarantee you I could find someone
that still would NOT believe it.
They still have a choice.
God is not FORCING them to believe, he is simply
showing them undeniable evidence.
If god came down, and snapped his fingers, and you
suddendly believed him BECAUSE HE MADE YOU,
then and only then has he denied you free will.
So, any more arguments Tripack?
You conceded on the first one regarding proof
of omniscience requiring omniscience.
I commend you on that one.
On part two, I just explained why free will is not
being eliminated.
Awaiting your counter argument.
peace
axeman
Originally posted by axeman
Very limited? By who's measure?
If a snail were capable, I bet it would think our
ability to understand the objective universe it quite grand
Are you aware of some superior beings hiding somewhere
that are more capable than we are of understanding
the universe? Why jump to such conclusions?
Your are obviously guessing.
I personally have no idea of how capable we are
of understanding the objective universe.
But I have not observed any entities that are more
capable than man.
I'm getting really tired of all these empty assertions.
It amazes me how frequently and easily people throw out claims
with nothing to back them up.
peace
axeman
Hey axe, you keep trying to make yourself feel so brilliant by accusing people of all kinds of fallacies, even when half the times these were non-existent (you simply assumed or misunderstood someone). This was proven in past pages (by yours truly). And again, you say that I am offering an "empty assertion," and how tired you are of people offering empty assertion. DO YOU FUCKING READ ALL THE FUCKING POSTS???? or did you skip pages here and there? Or maybe you are having a little problem with dementia? I have explained MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY FUCKING TIMES (often of the same thing since you did and still do appear to miss things) about how we are limited! And your stupid fucking criticism was to argue about relativity to other earth creatures, which has nothing to do with with how limtied we are in understanding absolute reality. We rely on 5 senses and a limited (and flawed) system of logic. We can't understand or perceive what lies outside of these things! For all you know, none of us exist. For all we know, there are things that require more senses to perceive. The list goes on! These are some of the things that I've mentioned (multiple times) previously!!
So are you very "Godly" thunderbolt?
Originally posted by axeman
Very limited? By who's measure?
If a snail were capable, I bet it would think our
ability to understand the objective universe it quite grand
Are you aware of some superior beings hiding somewhere
that are more capable than we are of understanding
the universe? Why jump to such conclusions?
Your are obviously guessing.
I personally have no idea of how capable we are
of understanding the objective universe.
But I have not observed any entities that are more
capable than man.
I'm getting really tired of all these empty assertions.
It amazes me how frequently and easily people throw out claims
with nothing to back them up.
peace
axeman
BTW, I never said there was another being that are more capable than man of understanding the objective universe. I never spoke in relative terms in fact! So why do read this (or misread, as usual) from??
[Narrator]
While the Peanut Gallery is still arguing a fruitless and unprovable debate, each of their clocks is ticking down. The only people who will win this unwinable debate are the one's who convince themselves that they will win.
However, let us take a break to hear from our sponsors!
[/Narrator]
"May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
the rains fall soft upon your fields, and,
until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of his hand."
--Irish Blessing
While the Peanut Gallery is still arguing a fruitless and unprovable debate, each of their clocks is ticking down. The only people who will win this unwinable debate are the one's who convince themselves that they will win.
However, let us take a break to hear from our sponsors!
[/Narrator]
"May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
the rains fall soft upon your fields, and,
until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of his hand."
--Irish Blessing
I truly thought I could restrict myself to only occasionally checking in on this thread, and to stop posting.
But neither of these two thoughts stood a chance.
If I only "occasionally" check in here, there is too much to catch up with. And I can't selectively read or skip, because in most cases it is interesting to see what someone's response may be. Or a new twist. Whatever. I find it interesting. Or perhaps "compelling" is a better word. I guess we all must feel at least somewhat this way, otherwise we would have let it die. Or the moderators would have shut it down (and they have certainly had many justifiable chances to do it). But yet....the moderators actually help keep it going. No proof or disproof of God yet, but proof of interest for sure.
After 256 pages, here comes Commisso who is probably the most slippery among us, because he can ask "what are you guys talking about" ... and leaves us all (or at least me) wondering if he has read every single word in the thread, or none of it. The beauty of Publias! Only he can know for certain. Sort of like having a worthless but godlike power
And to "not post", well I guess I am just a blowhard and can't resist. But in truth, after all these pages in this thread, it seems to have actually improved in tone. I have noticed a slowdown in the abusive, objectionable content. (Some of which was of great entertainment value and some just in bad taste and of no benefit and of no value...)
All posts should have at least one thing to provoke a thought or a smile (a laugh is better).
And it seems a little better lately. Less cursing, less open contempt, and of greatest consequence, somewhat less fervent and fiery stuff, and more open minded contributions. Tripack's post in which he talks about "miracles"....turning water to wine. Great post Tripack! Arguments that at least in tone give the impression that open minds are on both sides of the issue (and yet certainly not a few remain so rigid as to be convincingly thoughtless).
Because the whole concept of "proving" the existence or absence issue is never going to be concluded with absolute objectivity, the matter becomes just very compelling. Because the thoughts have to go deep. The subject demands it. Not to mention that 250+ pages and a zillion preceding words that we need try and stay relevant to. Or if we go on a tangent, they have so far been for the most part in a somewhat understandable fashion. Like a long blues or jazz solo, it sometimes seemingly gets away from the melody, but ends up coming back around. I know I have missed some stuff and most likely forgotten some. There have been so many interesting points and so many good rebuttals, many of the real gems get lost in the recesses of the old hunk of swiss cheese. (I admit to not reading most cut and pastes, or links, because I know what's coming depending on who they are from...I won't mention any names...I don't have to).
So in big globs, or drip by drip, I find myself coming back. And now I have even made a rambling Darkhorse like post. Lots of words. But unlike Darkhorse, I have managed to unintentionally avoid contributing any content. I feel so guilty
.
But I guess if I did intend to have any content here, it would have to be to express that I am impressed with the posts of some guys I have always previously dismissed as not worth my time reading, and disappointed with some that I had held in high regard and my admiration has diminished. So it goes to show, first impressions, (or second, etc.) can be so wrong. Even at my ancient age (according to some) I can learn or be reminded of basic truths. Like don't pre-judge.
Anyway, I want to thank all those who have taken the time to think through and make some great posts. Lots of stuff to ponder. Not much totally unique or fresh, but as good as can be reasonably expected. It is interesting to hear so many personal takes on matters that are not, by definition, rationally debatable. Yet somehow you guys have done a good job overall. Very impressive!!!
For what it's worth, I don't think if someone could turn water to wine that that would, with all certainty, prove them omnipresent or omnipotent or omniscient. Or to be God. Or is that the same thing?
Peace,
Rs7
PS: How do some traders manage to post between 3:30 and 4:00? That to me is pretty much a miracle
But neither of these two thoughts stood a chance.
If I only "occasionally" check in here, there is too much to catch up with. And I can't selectively read or skip, because in most cases it is interesting to see what someone's response may be. Or a new twist. Whatever. I find it interesting. Or perhaps "compelling" is a better word. I guess we all must feel at least somewhat this way, otherwise we would have let it die. Or the moderators would have shut it down (and they have certainly had many justifiable chances to do it). But yet....the moderators actually help keep it going. No proof or disproof of God yet, but proof of interest for sure.
After 256 pages, here comes Commisso who is probably the most slippery among us, because he can ask "what are you guys talking about" ... and leaves us all (or at least me) wondering if he has read every single word in the thread, or none of it. The beauty of Publias! Only he can know for certain. Sort of like having a worthless but godlike power
And to "not post", well I guess I am just a blowhard and can't resist. But in truth, after all these pages in this thread, it seems to have actually improved in tone. I have noticed a slowdown in the abusive, objectionable content. (Some of which was of great entertainment value and some just in bad taste and of no benefit and of no value...)
All posts should have at least one thing to provoke a thought or a smile (a laugh is better).
And it seems a little better lately. Less cursing, less open contempt, and of greatest consequence, somewhat less fervent and fiery stuff, and more open minded contributions. Tripack's post in which he talks about "miracles"....turning water to wine. Great post Tripack! Arguments that at least in tone give the impression that open minds are on both sides of the issue (and yet certainly not a few remain so rigid as to be convincingly thoughtless).
Because the whole concept of "proving" the existence or absence issue is never going to be concluded with absolute objectivity, the matter becomes just very compelling. Because the thoughts have to go deep. The subject demands it. Not to mention that 250+ pages and a zillion preceding words that we need try and stay relevant to. Or if we go on a tangent, they have so far been for the most part in a somewhat understandable fashion. Like a long blues or jazz solo, it sometimes seemingly gets away from the melody, but ends up coming back around. I know I have missed some stuff and most likely forgotten some. There have been so many interesting points and so many good rebuttals, many of the real gems get lost in the recesses of the old hunk of swiss cheese. (I admit to not reading most cut and pastes, or links, because I know what's coming depending on who they are from...I won't mention any names...I don't have to).
So in big globs, or drip by drip, I find myself coming back. And now I have even made a rambling Darkhorse like post. Lots of words. But unlike Darkhorse, I have managed to unintentionally avoid contributing any content. I feel so guilty
. But I guess if I did intend to have any content here, it would have to be to express that I am impressed with the posts of some guys I have always previously dismissed as not worth my time reading, and disappointed with some that I had held in high regard and my admiration has diminished. So it goes to show, first impressions, (or second, etc.) can be so wrong. Even at my ancient age (according to some) I can learn or be reminded of basic truths. Like don't pre-judge.
Anyway, I want to thank all those who have taken the time to think through and make some great posts. Lots of stuff to ponder. Not much totally unique or fresh, but as good as can be reasonably expected. It is interesting to hear so many personal takes on matters that are not, by definition, rationally debatable. Yet somehow you guys have done a good job overall. Very impressive!!!
For what it's worth, I don't think if someone could turn water to wine that that would, with all certainty, prove them omnipresent or omnipotent or omniscient. Or to be God. Or is that the same thing?
Peace,
Rs7
PS: How do some traders manage to post between 3:30 and 4:00? That to me is pretty much a miracle
I never said that you claimed there are more capable entities.
But im calling bullshit on your use of the word limited.
You have a theme of implying that humans are completely
incapable stupid little creates. Not sure why.
You said:
We, and our ability to understand the objective universe, are very limited!
VERY limited??? This begs the question, compared to what?
Your statement is completely meaningless if we dont attempt
to compare it to SOMETHING.
If you mean limited in the sense that we dont have the
faculties to simply know EVERYTHING, well duh. Then
thats a totally meaningless statement. Its stating the obvious
and I have no clue why you even bothered to make it.
Therefore I suspect this is not the case.
So please explain to us why you made the statement
about being VERY limited in response to STU's post.
peace
axeman
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