Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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Originally posted by daniel_m


tripack, who ever said that we need to understand god's omnipotence (thanks for ignoring my previous post!) to believe in him???? he would only have to show us an action that by any account would be called miraculous - like some of the one's axeman mentioned - and we would have EVERY REASON to believe he exists.

atheism illogical? i think not buddy boy. you are clutching at ever thinner straws with statements like that.
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I'll get to the other post after we chew through this basic idea for a bit.

And to skip to the end I'm not saying atheism is illogical, but that atheists who rely on science to give them answers to questions about god are being illogical. There may be logical reasons to not believe, such as "god hasn't spoken to me" or "god hasn't made himself known unto me".

The basic premise is that science will never be able to conclusively prove or disprove anything regarding a being who actually is omniscient and omnipotent other than what the being wishes to reveal. If that being doesn't reveal himself in such a way that science can measure, test and hypothesize then science will never come up with the right answer concerning that being. Rather than looking to science to give the answer to god's existence, why not look to god directly? I'm not saying look to religion A, B or C, but look to god. Some people do this through prayer while others do it through meditation or Zen. Some whirl like dervishes to get in tune and some read scripture. If an all powerful, all knowing god does exist then he certainly is capable of communicating with us if he wants to do so.

The problem with miracles and such is that people don't believe them even when they are right in front of us. You say show a miracle, I say look at the Bible, there are hundreds. You say you don't believe the bible and so we get nowhere.
 
Let me simply restate. I'm not saying an omnipotent/omniscient god is incapable of anything. But to show all power and all knowledge he would have to make us all powerful and all knowing too. I don't think god is that stupid!

He could show us in such a way that we knew he had all power and all knowledge. I totally agree.

If god showed you a vision and opened your mind so that you could comprehend all that, how would you go about scientifically confirming that vision?

And furthermore to stu's point, Why would you want to?

Originally posted by axeman
Your are claiming that an omnipotent/omniscient god is
POWERLESS to make us UNDERSTAND his
omnipotence/omniscience???

That in itself would prove that he is NOT omniscient
and omnipotent because he is not smart enough, or
not capable of making us understand.

Your argument is completely flawed.

If I were an omnipotent/omniscient being, do you
know how incredibly easy it would be to prove
this to anyone? I think you are ignoring the
obvious on purpose.

Your telling me you cant think of ANY way to prove
that you are an omniscient/omnipotent being to me?
(Assuming you were such a being)
Come on Tripack, im sure you can think of numerous
examples to convince me of this.


I think stu is simply making the point that if a
omnipotent/omniscient god existed, he could make
it so incredibly obvious that there would be no need
for scientific experiments.

I personally would do them anyway, but it would
be about as easy as proving that a rock, which I was
holding in my hand, would hit the ground when I released it.

peace

axeman
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Originally posted by TriPack


You give a trick question. I understand the word omnipotence means roughly all powerful, and the word omniscience means all knowing. But I concede that I really don't know what it means to be all powerful or all knowing, and furthermore would assert that neither does anyone who is not omnipotent or omniscient. How would you propose that an omnipotent/omniscient person display his power and knowledge so that we could understand what that meant? If we were shown all power and all knowledge, how could we comprehend and endure it?

Are you sure you want to make that argument stu, because by doing so you concede that not only is science utterly incapable of coming to the truth about god, but it is also irrelovent to the process? Science can neither measure nor comprehend omniscience and omnipotence. Why rely upon science, which has no capacity to confirm or deny truth regarding these matters? It makes no logical sense. If as you state, nothing "would need any testing" then you concede that science is irrelovent to the process of knowing an omnipotent/omniscient god. So why rely upon science to give us knowledge it is incapable of providing or which is unnecessary by your own admission?
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Tripack, you're blowing these atheists away. They can't grasp your logic and reasoning that requires a form of Godliness to understand.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
Tripack, maybe you were absent when we through this whole omnipotence/omniscience jazz. omnipotence is logically impossible.

By whose logic, yours or the all-powerful one's logic? Just because you can't comprehend all power doesn't mean there isn't such a thing.

whilst omniscience means that man does not have free will. and of course,

Just because someone else knows the outcome of an event or choice doesn't mean you can't exercise your free will to make the choice, even if it does turn out just as someone else knew it would. You only get lack of free will if the person in question interferes with your free will and forces you to make a specific choice.


the biggest one your god falls down on, by a country mile, is omnibenevolance.

I'm not sure I agree with your idea of omnibenevolance - how would you define it? Anyway I don't think that is the main thrust of the discussion.


if you wish to shield your idea of god from reason and logic by saying he is simply incomprehensible, fine. but the onus is on YOU to show how you came to have knowledge of the inherently UNKNOWABLE. otherwise, admit that if your god exists, he could only exist as a being with limited powers and limited knowlege.


I don't think god is unknowable - we can know as much as he wishes to tell us. I'll get into this in a future post as this is likely to be a bit controversial and lengthy.


how exactly does a christian gain knowledge of god? through the bible right?

Scripture, prayer, meditation, direct personal revelation (in its many forms), revelation given through religious leaders.


you would think then that once the bible has been shown to be a complete load of bullshit - as it has, MANY MANY TIMES OVER

I simply disagree that any such thing has been shown.

- that the christian would throw out his belief in christianity. but nooooooo, the christian wouldn't dare to do that...( i don't blame him, after the inhumane threats his god makes to him!). if that is not a textbook example of irrationality, i don't know what is.

Whether something is illogical depends ultimately on what is the truth. In the end maybe we will all find out what is Truth and what is not, then again maybe we will never know.
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Originally posted by daniel_m


tripack, who ever said that we need to understand god's omnipotence (thanks for ignoring my previous post!) to believe in him???? he would only have to show us an action that by any account would be called miraculous - like some of the one's axeman mentioned - and we would have EVERY REASON to believe he exists.

atheism illogical? i think not buddy boy. you are clutching at ever thinner straws with statements like that.
More...

God manifested many actions through Jesus but they were ignored and he was put to secular death. So, God could show us all sorts of things(which he already has), but man would find a way to ignore them or discredit them all together. Thus, it wouldn't do any good, anyhow. You'd still be on the ET board posting garbage.
 
Originally posted by TriPack

The problem with miracles and such is that people don't believe them even when they are right in front of us. You say show a miracle, I say look at the Bible, there are hundreds. You say you don't believe the bible and so we get nowhere.
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firstly, you are still convinced that an omnipotent being is POSSIBLE. i say this is rubbish, because it compeltely contradicts the laws of logic.

you say an omniscient being is possible. so you are implicitly saying that man does not have free will. if your god knows before hand everything i'm gonna do, i am nothing but a pre-destined robot. if he does not know what i will do, he is not omniscient.

you haven't commented on your god's alleged omnibenevolance i guess because all the evidene suggests he is not.

then you say there ARE miracles and point to the bible as evidence? my friend, that is not evidence, but pure hearsay! the bible is not admissable as evidence anyway, because it is your only source of information on god. therefore the truthfulness of the bible is exactly what is at question here!
WHY WHY WHY aren't i allowed to critically examine the claims the bible makes? your entire position rests on "the bible says a miracle happened, therefore it happened." HOW DO I KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE????? answer me that!!!!
sheessh...you people act as though the bible is the ONLY book that makes miraculous claims. religions THROUGHOUT HISTORY have made miraculous claims, do we accept all of them as true??? your logic suggests we ought to!
 
Originally posted by TriPack
Let me simply restate. I'm not saying an omnipotent/omniscient god is incapable of anything. But to show all power and all knowledge he would have to make us all powerful and all knowing too. I don't think god is that stupid!
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your god need only let us know of his omnipotence, nothing more.


He could show us in such a way that we knew he had all power and all knowledge. I totally agree.

If god showed you a vision and opened your mind so that you could comprehend all that, how would you go about scientifically confirming that vision?




The Bible is not a miracle it is a work of fiction

You can have any kind of metaphysical god you like, it can only exist in your head.
Because you can't see it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist?? Then so does FPC's Unicorn test or axeman's Big Foot test. Those are just as valid.

Believe there is a god if you want, but you cannot ever say that it is the TRUTH anymore than Big Foot.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m


firstly, you are still convinced that an omnipotent being is POSSIBLE. i say this is rubbish, because it compeltely contradicts the laws of logic.

you say an omniscient being is possible. so you are implicitly saying that man does not have free will.

you haven't commented on your god's alleged omnibenevolance i guess because all the evidene suggests he is not.

then you say there ARE miracles and point to the bible as evidence? my friend, that is not evidence, but pure hearsay! the bible is not admissable as evidence anyway, because it is your only source of information on god. therefore the truthfulness of the bible is exactly what is at question here!
WHY WHY WHY aren't i allowed to critically examine the claims the bible makes? your entire position rests on "the bible says a miracle happened, therefore it happened." HOW DO I KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE????? answer me that!!!!
sheessh...you people act as though the bible is the ONLY book that makes miraculous claims. religions THROUGHOUT HISTORY have made miraculous claims, do we accept all of them as true??? your logic suggests we ought to!
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it only compeltely contradicts your laws of logic. Once again, you don't even know 1/10000000000000000000000000000th of what there is to know. So, put your puny logic back in your pocket and go home.
 
Originally posted by stu


your god need only let us know of his omnipotence, nothing more.


He could show us in such a way that we knew he had all power and all knowledge. I totally agree.

If god showed you a vision and opened your mind so that you could comprehend all that, how would you go about scientifically confirming that vision?




The Bible is not a miracle it is a work of fiction

You can have any kind of metaphysical god you like, it can only exist in your head.
Because you can't see it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist?? Then so does FPC's Unicorn test or axeman's Big Foot test. Those are just as valid.

Believe there is a god if you want, but you cannot ever say that it is the TRUTH anymore than Big Foot.
More...

JESUS is the absolute truth! There, I said it.
 
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