I take it that you are referring to Dolt and the bible, and that you are not referring to me as infantile (cause I have been extremely far from it)! Please correct me if I'm wrong!!!
Regarding the Existence or Absence of God
- Thread starter rs7
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I take it that you are referring to Dolt and the bible, and that you are not referring to me as infantile (cause I have been extremely far from it)! Please correct me if I'm wrong!!!
Originally posted by rs7
Finally this thread is getting GOOD!
Much more interesting than Tbolt's nonsense. Finally two guys that can actually debate each other and RESOND!!!! Way to go!
Daniel, you did a fine job, but with Tdolt (copywrite 2002 IMissedTheBoat), you were just shadow boxing.
rs7
With all dure respect, this last debate was pretty much more of the "great taste"/"less filling" stuff that we've covered over and over. As far as Danny and Dolt (copyright 02 me), eventually it resembled more of a guy on the sidewalk trying to talk reason to a homeless schizo guy who is talking to himself. I hate to say it, but this thread long ago ran its course. I don't pretend as though I won't be checking in in the evening though until people stop posting.
goldenarm,
Just please, if it is present, let the red mist subside a little before you either accuse me of saying something I didn't or skim through my posts 'cause they annoy you too much and you maybe clipping off an end part to throw back at me 'cause it feels the best thing to do. I am honestly telling you or anyone that is interested enough for that matter, that I am too naive to 'believe' . I admit quite honestly to you, that I cannot grasp the concept of there being a ceator god which can be worshipped
by mankind. I am the one at a disadvantage in the debate. I DO NOT object in any way that you and others do see it all.
Let me tell you just a little about myself then you may see a little more what I mean. It appears to be the norm to give a little of one's biography now and again on this board
My wife is a devout christian. She is the most wonderful creature and I am the luckiest guy in the world (as are you all , with a wife like mine ) She was brought up in the " Bible Belt" . I was born in England. I was brought up in the Church of England. I am blessed with two gloriously wonderful kids. I have more than enough money by any standard. My Father and Mother were Americans and they produced my dual nationality, as well as producing me. Both my kids have dual nationality too and therby I enjoy and learn as best as I am able to from both The British and The American way. Because of what I know, say and feel I have a lot to lose if the only god there is is a spiteful and cruel entity. I think of my kids and what I do when they disobey me. I think if they were to do the worst things against me and how I would feel and react. I hate thinking of it, but I do know deep down I could and would NOT smite themor cast them into eternal damnation.
I see the point of debate. I don't however see the point of debates like these turning into slanging matches. I don't think it is right to attempt to be purposefully condescending in discussion or argument, trying to make a clever point or demeaning
comment. I don't see the point in turning argument on it's head to make a so called clever anecdote or remark. If your
comments are to only display humor or childishness, then I would have thought this probably was a little too much of a particularly poingnent thread to do that in, considering some of the feelings expressed so far. But if you only ever wanted to pee about then that makes a little more sense.
I have long and thoughtful discussions over such subjects with my wife, my points when rationalised to her just make me want to stop. The look on her face and in her eyes when a spark of reasoned doubt enters her beautiful head, taught me never to go too far, or to insist too much or bully her to see things my way. It's just one reason I know from that feeling that the god described to us by the churches is a false god. Nothing and no one could hurt or upset such precious beings with intent, unless they were malevolent, including the creator god.
I don't know who you are and you don't know me. I could be the doctor who saves your life or gives blood which helps your children, you may be the same to me. That's why I like to debate and not accuse force or bully or make too many specious remarks. I have never said I am an aetheist yet you use that as an intended weapon (as you put it) in your armoury to be held against me. That is just the debate on an accuser, someone who has already decided that there should be no debate.
I look at the evidence, I observe, I think and I care.
ps I Missed Boat,
To be clear in your mind please read again perhaps a little more carefully, "...the infantile creation of an unknowable god". In any context connected to this thread, you should not need any further explanation that that sentence or any of it's content implies you are infantile.
However, who cares. Do you?
Just please, if it is present, let the red mist subside a little before you either accuse me of saying something I didn't or skim through my posts 'cause they annoy you too much and you maybe clipping off an end part to throw back at me 'cause it feels the best thing to do. I am honestly telling you or anyone that is interested enough for that matter, that I am too naive to 'believe' . I admit quite honestly to you, that I cannot grasp the concept of there being a ceator god which can be worshipped
by mankind. I am the one at a disadvantage in the debate. I DO NOT object in any way that you and others do see it all.
Let me tell you just a little about myself then you may see a little more what I mean. It appears to be the norm to give a little of one's biography now and again on this board
My wife is a devout christian. She is the most wonderful creature and I am the luckiest guy in the world (as are you all , with a wife like mine ) She was brought up in the " Bible Belt" . I was born in England. I was brought up in the Church of England. I am blessed with two gloriously wonderful kids. I have more than enough money by any standard. My Father and Mother were Americans and they produced my dual nationality, as well as producing me. Both my kids have dual nationality too and therby I enjoy and learn as best as I am able to from both The British and The American way. Because of what I know, say and feel I have a lot to lose if the only god there is is a spiteful and cruel entity. I think of my kids and what I do when they disobey me. I think if they were to do the worst things against me and how I would feel and react. I hate thinking of it, but I do know deep down I could and would NOT smite themor cast them into eternal damnation.
I see the point of debate. I don't however see the point of debates like these turning into slanging matches. I don't think it is right to attempt to be purposefully condescending in discussion or argument, trying to make a clever point or demeaning
comment. I don't see the point in turning argument on it's head to make a so called clever anecdote or remark. If your
comments are to only display humor or childishness, then I would have thought this probably was a little too much of a particularly poingnent thread to do that in, considering some of the feelings expressed so far. But if you only ever wanted to pee about then that makes a little more sense.
I have long and thoughtful discussions over such subjects with my wife, my points when rationalised to her just make me want to stop. The look on her face and in her eyes when a spark of reasoned doubt enters her beautiful head, taught me never to go too far, or to insist too much or bully her to see things my way. It's just one reason I know from that feeling that the god described to us by the churches is a false god. Nothing and no one could hurt or upset such precious beings with intent, unless they were malevolent, including the creator god.
I don't know who you are and you don't know me. I could be the doctor who saves your life or gives blood which helps your children, you may be the same to me. That's why I like to debate and not accuse force or bully or make too many specious remarks. I have never said I am an aetheist yet you use that as an intended weapon (as you put it) in your armoury to be held against me. That is just the debate on an accuser, someone who has already decided that there should be no debate.
I look at the evidence, I observe, I think and I care.
ps I Missed Boat,
To be clear in your mind please read again perhaps a little more carefully, "...the infantile creation of an unknowable god". In any context connected to this thread, you should not need any further explanation that that sentence or any of it's content implies you are infantile.
However, who cares. Do you?
Yup. To all. But "great taste/less filling" always was entertaining. Bob Euker, Rodney Dangerfield....I would take them over Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell anytime. Even Billy Graham never really cracked me up that much
BTW, love the comparison of Tdolt (copyright THOU 2002), to a homeless schizo talking to himself. As Gordon G. himself would probably say, "LOL".
peace,Rs7
apologies for the typo. "RESPOND"!
I was just curious. It seemed that were putting down the idea that if a God exist, it could, to some extent at least, be beyond our ability to fully comprehend it. It was in that context that you referred to an "infantile creation." I just wanted clarification, but I figured you were talking about your view of the biblical God, and it appears that that was in fact the context.
I am not sure which research that is, but I might agree that spontaneous generation has never emerged from inorganic materials because then it wouldn't be Carbon-based. Organic life such as human beings are carbon-based and has been observed due to our existence. One can take the position that whether or not life is complex to produce is irrelevant. As long as it's not impossible (no matter how improbable), if the chance exist it will manifest itself...It's like saying that winning the lotto is highly improbable, but certainly not impossible...and every week we see one or few people winning the jackpot. The universe is real big, the amount of planet-star systems are enormous, it's not surprising to imagine that there are more life forms out there besides our own solar system or galaxy. It's hard to believe with the evidence presented to us by fossils and records that GOD created us only recently (by universe's time-scale) and after so many tries, what happened to the dinosaurs? Did HE not like them and killed them off? I respect religion and those that are religious, but I myself am not simply because I find it hard to believe, but hey that's just me and since we have free will (the only point we all can agree on I think) we are free to explore and believe whatever you want that makes you happy. So good trading to all!
I believe a lot of people turned to atheism to escape the strict interpretation of Christianity and other religions. Obviously there is plenty of scientific evidence to show life has existed for more than 6,000 years, but many hard-core Christians refuse to believe anything except what is preached to them at their church by a bible-thumping extreme conservative with reactionary tendencies.
However, one must also note that we are in fact here and that some process got us to this point of consciousness. If I elect to call whatever mechanism or process which got me here to be "god," then it is merely semantics.
This is the main point -- EVERYTHING is semantics when you look at it. You call the sky blue, but how do I know that your blue isn't my yellow? Well, obviously we might look at the same color and agree it is "blue" ... but the blue I see may be yellow. However, since my mind and eyes are different than yours, I was brought up to call it blue.
Everything breaks down on a microscopic level. You can take it all down to the Planck scale and perhaps observe that the universe is actually composed super-dimensional sub-structures that create a three-dimensional coordinate system. They can't find the God particle (probably because it doesn't exist). They can't unify the four fundamental forces in the universe -- and now they are saying there might be a fifth one??
Science reaches a limit -- not absolute science, but are collective human ability to interpret events within our universe.
Right now, thousands of people are dieing. Where are they going? There are also thousands more being born -- where are they coming from?
Nobody knows obviously. It will never be proven. Actually, like all the best things in life, it will be proven to each of us on a very personal level. When I kick the bucket, one of a few scenerios will play out:
a) Nothingness -- non-existence
b) I continue to exist with my collective experiences still in tact
c) I continue to exist in a modified form that may encompass combining back into a "life essence" of the universe.
Naturally, our ego's want us to remain alive. We love to be individuals. What we cannot seem to grasp is what it would be like to be alive but part of a larger collective.
Our own bodies are composed of billions of cells that are considered alive, yet each of them work together in unison to keep the super-structure (myself) alive. You get emergence properties when many small systems interact to create a much larger system. You could say that people could be considered cells within a society -- a super-collective of individuals that create the "culture" of a society. We could even stretch is some and say that a "culture" or "society" is alive in a much larger way than we are.
A Roman soldier loses a finger in a war against a Germanic tribe. Those cells in his finger die, but the soldier continues to live and function normally. The Roman soldier then passes away, but his contributions to Rome live on and are assimilated into the culture of that society. His brother and father die, but Rome still lives on. The culture continues to live and breath through the collective actions of many people. Eventually, Rome falls and the society that was once Rome dissipates. However, the culture never really dies as it gets assimilated into other cultures. Hence, the larger the system, the longer it seems to propagate forward through time and "survive."
Take this a step further, and zoom away far from earth, and we can say that all systems -- animals, plants, birds, insects, etc -- exist in unison and create a massive life-essence on this planet. Hence, these systems interact with each other in such a way that Earth itself could be considered to be "alive" in some aspects.
Zoom further out so that 100,000,000 light years is in the space of a foot of vision, and you might observe gigantic super-structures of unbelievable size working together in such a way that, when all things are considered, the final unit -- the final super-structure -- may be considered "God."
This is just one of many ways of looking at it of course. The important thing is that people think about the possibilities because they are exciting. There is no right or wrong in this reality.
In effect, the nature of reality is so subjective to our own experiences, that your very thoughts *CAN* change reality.
However, one must also note that we are in fact here and that some process got us to this point of consciousness. If I elect to call whatever mechanism or process which got me here to be "god," then it is merely semantics.
This is the main point -- EVERYTHING is semantics when you look at it. You call the sky blue, but how do I know that your blue isn't my yellow? Well, obviously we might look at the same color and agree it is "blue" ... but the blue I see may be yellow. However, since my mind and eyes are different than yours, I was brought up to call it blue.
Everything breaks down on a microscopic level. You can take it all down to the Planck scale and perhaps observe that the universe is actually composed super-dimensional sub-structures that create a three-dimensional coordinate system. They can't find the God particle (probably because it doesn't exist). They can't unify the four fundamental forces in the universe -- and now they are saying there might be a fifth one??
Science reaches a limit -- not absolute science, but are collective human ability to interpret events within our universe.
Right now, thousands of people are dieing. Where are they going? There are also thousands more being born -- where are they coming from?
Nobody knows obviously. It will never be proven. Actually, like all the best things in life, it will be proven to each of us on a very personal level. When I kick the bucket, one of a few scenerios will play out:
a) Nothingness -- non-existence
b) I continue to exist with my collective experiences still in tact
c) I continue to exist in a modified form that may encompass combining back into a "life essence" of the universe.
Naturally, our ego's want us to remain alive. We love to be individuals. What we cannot seem to grasp is what it would be like to be alive but part of a larger collective.
Our own bodies are composed of billions of cells that are considered alive, yet each of them work together in unison to keep the super-structure (myself) alive. You get emergence properties when many small systems interact to create a much larger system. You could say that people could be considered cells within a society -- a super-collective of individuals that create the "culture" of a society. We could even stretch is some and say that a "culture" or "society" is alive in a much larger way than we are.
A Roman soldier loses a finger in a war against a Germanic tribe. Those cells in his finger die, but the soldier continues to live and function normally. The Roman soldier then passes away, but his contributions to Rome live on and are assimilated into the culture of that society. His brother and father die, but Rome still lives on. The culture continues to live and breath through the collective actions of many people. Eventually, Rome falls and the society that was once Rome dissipates. However, the culture never really dies as it gets assimilated into other cultures. Hence, the larger the system, the longer it seems to propagate forward through time and "survive."
Take this a step further, and zoom away far from earth, and we can say that all systems -- animals, plants, birds, insects, etc -- exist in unison and create a massive life-essence on this planet. Hence, these systems interact with each other in such a way that Earth itself could be considered to be "alive" in some aspects.
Zoom further out so that 100,000,000 light years is in the space of a foot of vision, and you might observe gigantic super-structures of unbelievable size working together in such a way that, when all things are considered, the final unit -- the final super-structure -- may be considered "God."
This is just one of many ways of looking at it of course. The important thing is that people think about the possibilities because they are exciting. There is no right or wrong in this reality.
In effect, the nature of reality is so subjective to our own experiences, that your very thoughts *CAN* change reality.
Sounds like Stephen Hawking has come to join the thread! Now if someone could develop a warp drive and transporter...
Stu, no hard feelings. I thought you were a pure aethiest trying to blast Christianity by proclaiming the "unfairness of it all." Thanks for your biography. I'm married to a beautiful Catholic woman but unlike you I DON'T have more money than anyone can ask for.
I do pride myself in having an open mind and generous nature though.
Truthfully, I haven't read all of your postings on this thread. I read the first 20 pages and the last 20 and I'm sure I missed alot of stuff. My bad!
Stu, no hard feelings. I thought you were a pure aethiest trying to blast Christianity by proclaiming the "unfairness of it all." Thanks for your biography. I'm married to a beautiful Catholic woman but unlike you I DON'T have more money than anyone can ask for.
I do pride myself in having an open mind and generous nature though.Truthfully, I haven't read all of your postings on this thread. I read the first 20 pages and the last 20 and I'm sure I missed alot of stuff. My bad!
lol (referring to aphie)
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