Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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Originally posted by marketsurfer
gentlemen,

some people seem to have an inate knowledge of a creator and other do not have this knowledge. those who do not posess the "knowledge" believe that those who do are foolish. my question is can anything convince a skeptic that there is a creator ?? or on a personal note--what would it take to convince you ?? axe, dan, gg ---- if one of you guys had an encounter with a god type entity would you just chock it up as self delusion??

as heidegger states, "cast in matter, alone in the universe" what a sorry state for mankind.
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'Surf,

I think you are incorrect when you say there are some people with an "innate" knowledge of god/creator. At birth, no child has any of this knowledge. It must be learnt, someone must teach it to you. Therefore, it is not innate.

Although one's "knowledge" of a creator/god may feel innate, in that such a person could not fathom living without it, it really is simply a figment of one's imagination.

'Surf, I used to be a hard core christian (greek orthodox). I honestly would have sworn that I had had experiences with a divine entity. Sometimes states would come over me that I could not explain, and i would put it down to being "in touch with god".

Since i have begun making greater use of my rational faculty, and used it to think critically where critical thinking is required, i can honestly say that i have had no such experiences.

So, what would it take to convince me? Well, it would take a lot wouldn't it! How about a miracle that is shown to every single person in the world? One that is so obvious that there can be no doubt that it was illusion or trickery - an "all-powerful" being should have no trouble coming up with something like that.

Or, given that that's pretty unlikely to happen...how about an explanation of the attributes of such a creator/god that don't contradict each other? I've asked countless times for such an explanation, still none is forthcoming.

"cast in matter, alone in the universe"? this really gets to the heart of the matter doesn't it. Some people just cannot adjust to the idea that this life is all there is...that the suffering they see is real and may NEVER be attoned for...that, yes, mass murderers CAN get away with it and NEVER pay for their crimes...that there MUST be some "greater meaning" to life...
look, that would be great. but, as far as i'm concerned, it's pie in the sky. I simply cannot find any rational reason at all to believe that that is the case.
 
Originally posted by FasterPussycat

i can't help but think about "dark" who seems intelligent and his arguments also seem well informed but i can't tell if his arguments are valid or he is just a crank. what do you think about "dark"? i have to add that there is irony here as i am pretty sure that he has concluded that about US and that's why he has refrained from any more debate. how about it dark, do you think WE are the irrational ones ?? :D
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Whoa! that's a side of faster i ain't seen yet! :) fpc, you just keep gettin better bro! love ya, as alwayz!

My opinion? i think Dark is in a real 'rock and a hard place' situation. on the one hand he wants to be rational,..but on the other he wants to believe in his religion. thus far, all his efforts to reconcile his faith with reason have been a failure. i think that's why he left in such a huff.

does he think we are the irrational ones? i doubt it. he realises the irrationality of his faith. that's why he desperately tries to argue that it is reasonable - you've seen all those arguments he pulled out on the "Superstition etc" thread. of course, all those arguments fail and he's stuck with being irrational. his latest effort was to dress up religion in a cloak of complexity, in order to shield it from the attacks of reason. that didn't work either. back to the drawing board.
 
dan,

thanks for the response. yeah, it would be tough to determine if the inate "knowledge" of a creator that i feel is inate or simply taught. to me it is obvious that there is a creator, the question is whether this creator can be known.

best,

surf
 
surf,

i'd have to ask you HOW you 'know' what you claim to. how do you know there is a creator? or, in better terms, on what basis do you feel a sense of certainty (to whatever degree) that there is a creator? pardon my frankness, but your answer would have to be better than .."hmm, the world sure looks created to me..".
 
dan,

i just KNOW. i feel it innately--like one knows that he/she is going to take the next breath. i understand that this knowledge is intellectual terra incognita to you as it cant be rationally or logically explained. no matter what story you tell yourself about how the world works can't explain to you how forming the wish to close your hand into a fist makes it happen. rationality and logic (science) cant offer a clue about how that happens. the creator is self evident to me, logical consistency has nothing to do with it. hope this makes some sense.

best,

surf:cool:
 
If God went around proving his existence to everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as FAITH. Religion is based on FAITH. No one said that believing in something that seems to defy rational scientific explanation was an easy thing and that is the challenge of FAITH.

What's the challenge if God and Jesus reveal themselves to everyone with a host of angels, trumpets and chariots and threatens them with eternal damnation if they don't change their wicked ways? Obviously, everyone would become a devout Christian. Proof of something's existence and faith are mutually exclusive terms.

Don't knock people for believing in God. I may not agree with Thunderdolt's heavy-handed manner of expressing himself but I DO respect other religions and their peaceful adherents. And yes, I believe in God... so PISS OFF!
 
If unicorns went around proving their existence to everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as FAITH. Unicornism is based on FAITH. No one said that believing in something that seems to defy rational scientific explanation was an easy thing and that is the challenge of FAITH.

What's the challenge if Unicon and Uni-jezus reveal themselves to everyone with a host of other pegasi, trumpets and chariots and threatens them with eternal hoofnation if they don't change their wicked ways? Obviously, everyone would become a devout Unicorian. Proof of something's existence and faith are mutually exclusive terms.

Don't knock people for believing in Unicorns. I may not agree with Thunderdolt's heavy-handed manner of expressing himself but I DO respect other religions and their peaceful adherents. And yes, I believe in Unicorns... so PISS OFF!



peace

axeman


Originally posted by goldenarm
If God went around proving his existence to everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as FAITH. Religion is based on FAITH. No one said that believing in something that seems to defy rational scientific explanation was an easy thing and that is the challenge of FAITH.

What's the challenge if God and Jesus reveal themselves to everyone with a host of angels, trumpets and chariots and threatens them with eternal damnation if they don't change their wicked ways? Obviously, everyone would become a devout Christian. Proof of something's existence and faith are mutually exclusive terms.

Don't knock people for believing in God. I may not agree with Thunderdolt's heavy-handed manner of expressing himself but I DO respect other religions and their peaceful adherents. And yes, I believe in God... so PISS OFF!
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If God went around proving his existence to everyone, then there wouldn't be such a thing as FAITH. Religion is based on FAITH. No one said that believing in something that seems to defy rational scientific explanation was an easy thing and that is the challenge of FAITH.

oh man, another blithering idiot. I agree, believing in something that defies rational logic is not easy....furthermore, it can be totally freakin dangerous! to your own health (physical and psychological) and to others.

What's the challenge if God and Jesus reveal themselves to everyone with a host of angels, trumpets and chariots and threatens them with eternal damnation if they don't change their wicked ways? Obviously, everyone would become a devout Christian. Proof of something's existence and faith are mutually exclusive terms.

why does there need to be a challenge? what are these "wicked ways" you're talking about? you are full of shit...dont' get me started, or you'll go home feeling like a little boy that just got his butt kicked.

I agree with your description of faith and reason being mutually exclusive. That's exactly why faith - as used to justify belief in the supernatural - is completely unnecessary.


Don't knock people for believing in God. I may not agree with Thunderdolt's heavy-handed manner of expressing himself but I DO respect other religions and their peaceful adherents. And yes, I believe in God... so PISS OFF!

Why shouldn't I knock people that believe in God? They have a long and distinguished history of knocking people like me.
 
Originally posted by marketsurfer
no matter what story you tell yourself about how the world works can't explain to you how forming the wish to close your hand into a fist makes it happen. rationality and logic (science) cant offer a clue about how that happens. the creator is self evident to me, logical consistency has nothing to do with it. hope this makes some sense.
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i totally disagree. Science most certainly COULD offer a "clue" about how the process you describe occurs. Furthermore, just because right now, at this point in time, science does not have a thorough explanation for something does't mean that we shoot off into the realm of the occult in an attempt to explain our obversations.

sorry surf, the existance of a creator is not intrinsically self-evident. If it was, it would be self-evident to all of us. Since it isn't, the possibility exists that you are incorrect in your interpretation of the world. As such, we cannot accept YOUR interpretation, or MINE, or ANYONE's simply because it is asserted - we are forced to srutinize the evidence (logical or material) for each position.
 
dan,

i am not asking you or anyone to believe in a creator. however, you CAN NOT tell me that some people dont have an innate knowledge of such. just because you do not have such knowledge, does not mean others do not. i totally understand how it is difficult or impossible for you fathom what i am trying to say. the creator is something i sense intuitively, it seems that the creator has established an ontological priority where he is looking in on us, we are not looking in on him. this is why our logical and rational thought structures do not work when dealing in this realm.

best,

surf:cool:
 
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