Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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<i>daniel_m said:
1) Saul of Tarsus - in other words, Paul - never actually claims to have met jesus. history shows almost conclusively that Paul was part of a group called the Gnostics...that he in fact never even suggests that the Jesus story is meant to be real. </i>

Where did THAT come from? If you're going to argue about the Bible or the people in it at least try to know what you're talking about instead of going on hearsay.
Jeff
 
Originally posted by aphexcoil
Daniel,



So, you are now refuting a scientifically held principle that the universe is finite in time -- but has actually existed forever? If not, then surely something existed before it.
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Aphie,

This is starting to get very familiar.



quote:
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Originally posted by aphexcoil
Then you can look at the encoding of DNA information and determine that, by mere chance, it would take a time-period vastly larger than the universe has been around to formulate and encode just the simple enzymes within the human body.


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How long is that time-period?

Or, how long has the universe been around?

rs7
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I have to agree with you about there being no resolution to this debate. However I think it can be scored. But both sides seem to be losing momentum. All of the participants seem to have contradicted themselves by now. Except for Thunderbolt. Who is obviously not to be reasoned with.
 
Originally posted by Jeffo
<i>daniel_m said:
1) Saul of Tarsus - in other words, Paul - never actually claims to have met jesus. history shows almost conclusively that Paul was part of a group called the Gnostics...that he in fact never even suggests that the Jesus story is meant to be real. </i>

Where did THAT come from? If you're going to argue about the Bible or the people in it at least try to know what you're talking about instead of going on hearsay.
Jeff
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my my my ....so many smart people around here..

buddy, have you read many of my posts? do you really think i am the kind of person that would make a statement without being able to back it up??

if you seriously want to engage in a discussion on this...please be prepared to critically examine your bible and the historicity of the people depicted in it.
 
Originally posted by rs7



I have to agree with you about there being no resolution to this debate. However I think it can be scored. But both sides seem to be losing momentum. All of the participants seem to have contradicted themselves by now. Except for Thunderbolt. Who is obviously not to be reasoned with.
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pray tell, where and how how have I contradicted myself?
 
If I said the creator was the process of evolution would you agree?

Using your logic, I can simply point at a man and say,
SEE!!! EVOLUTION IS TRUE!!

This is NOT a rational conclusion. I must SHOW that
evolution is in fact the process which "Created" us.
That evolution is the creator.

For the same reason, you must SHOW that a "creator"
actually created us. You must also prove that
this creator exists. You cannot point at us and say,
SEE!!! I CLAIM THAT THIS UNSEEN, UNPROVEN, THING,
SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, CREATED US.
As my proof I offer.... ummm.... oh wait.
Get the picture?


I have given examples of why a creator is NOT intuitive.
My "nerve endings wired backward in the eye" example
shows that the eye could not be the work of an
intelligent creator.

So we have SOME evidence that there isnt a creator, or
that he is a MORON.

You have failed to bridge the gap between
creation and creator. Its a non-sequitor.

I gave my giant bird created the earth example.
Why cant I simply look at the spherical earth
and claim that a giant bird layed it?
Thats how it came into being.
Why not??? Because I have not bridged the gap.
It is NOT a valid conclusion. I must provide
a TON of supporting evidence that:

A) Said giant bird exists
B) Said giant bird actually laid the blue earth egg

Lets get serious for a moment. Do you have
any proof that a giant bird didnt lay the earth?
No you dont. I dont either.
Does that add any weight to this ridiculous claim?
No it doesnt.

Who has the burden of proof? I DO.
Do I have any proof for giant earth laying birds? No I dont.

I like to use ridiculous examples to make a point.
I also can not expect any rational person to swallow
my GRAND claim without a ton of supporting evidence.

Anyway....
You are basically using the "argument from design".

If you want a really good answer to why this
is a flawed argument, I would suggest reading
"The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.

He goes into detail of how complexity can come about
without the need for a creator.


One more thing.... if you really believe there MUST be
a creator to explain this complex universe, you must
also explain why a thing as complex as a creator
would NOT also have a creator....and so on and so on...
You have failed to address this point several times now.


peace


axeman

Originally posted by aphexcoil
Axeman and Danny Boy,

Everything that is created comes from a creator. We are here right now -- therefore something created us. That creation event is the Creator.

How can you refute this ever-so-simple and easy to understand concept?
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I beg to differ.

Please show us a single assertion you have made
that you have successfully defended.

Just one.


axeman



Originally posted by aphexcoil
Axeman,

I didn't lose the debate because you didn't listen very carefully to my original proposition! You need to fine tune your listening skills!
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Originally posted by daniel_m
ex nihilo
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i know a lot of words, but i gotta say.. daniel_m has used some nice words throughout this thread.

another good one is "sophistry." (used on darkhorse hehe)
 
I want to know where I have contradicted myself too.

I challenge you to point this out. :D


peace

axeman




Originally posted by rs7


Aphie,

This is starting to get very familiar.



I have to agree with you about there being no resolution to this debate. However I think it can be scored. But both sides seem to be losing momentum. All of the participants seem to have contradicted themselves by now. Except for Thunderbolt. Who is obviously not to be reasoned with. [/B]
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