Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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Originally posted by FasterPussycat
Theist sheep love to claim that God is an all-just God AND an all-merciful God.


But....


An all-just God must treat every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves. (by definition)

and


An all-merciful God must treat every offender with less severity than he/she deserves. (also by definition)



However.....


It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves.

Hence, it is impossible for an all-just judge to also be an all-merciful judge (and the reverse is also true)


LOGIC MY FRIENDS! LOGIC ALLOWS (NO, DEMANDS!) ONE TO QUESTION *HIM* & EVEN *HIS* EXISTENCE!!! :D
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These are word games, nothing more.
 
Originally posted by nitro

Faster,

There is a simpler version of this:

Axiom: God is omnipotent [assumed certainly by Christians and the like]

Question: Can he build a rock that even he can't lift?

If he can build that rock, then he can't lift it and is not omnipotent.
if he cannot build that rock, well...

nitro
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I mentioned this argument earlier (twice). These are word games. They are simply using words and an extremely finite and limited communication and logic system to challenge the notion of "all-powerful." Semantics.
 
it's not just semantics I missed Boat.

if we are not able to talk intelligently - within the strict confinements of logic - about concepts...then your assertion that "god" may or may not exist is completely worthless
 
How can we prove that anything really exists? How do you know you exist? You think you think, but do you really control your actions and thoughts? Do you really have free-will or are you just some complex machine that thinks it has free-will?

Perhaps you (Yes, *YOU* the person reading this message) is the only real thing in existence and everyone else -- everything else -- is just an illusion that YOU created eons ago because YOU were GOD and got bored with being GOD and wanted to be something else while clearing out all memories of being GOD.

Once you die, you will return to being GOD, where you can then decide what your next game will be.

Maybe *YOU* are god, and as god, got very lonely and this is YOUR way of dealing with that insecurity of being a GOD.
 
aphie, you probably think you are being really profound with that post. you are not. such ideas have been discussed (and dismissed) by philosophers for eons.

if you girls are still willing, i'll post a nice lengthy argument on another thread..and i'd like to keep the debate formal, civil and succinct. i'm sorry i haven't done it yet...been a bit tied up with FFL.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
it's not just semantics I missed Boat.

if we are not able to talk intelligently - within the strict confinements of logic - about concepts...then your assertion that "god" may or may not exist is completely worthless
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We can talk intelligently while AVOIDING absurd games of semantics. Argue relevant and legitimate logic, not word games that bring down the broadest concepts into games of our communications and recognize the limitations of our logic systems.
 
Originally posted by I Missed Boat


We can talk intelligently while AVOIDING absurd games of semantics. Argue relevant and legitimate logic, not word games that bring down the broadest concepts into games of our communications and recognize the limitations of our logic systems.
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i'm not talking about convoluted logic...just the basics. it simply MUST be accepted that the simple laws of logic are universal and they apply to all knowledge.
if someone makes a knowledge claim that contradicts the laws of logic, then that "knowledge" is bunk.

words have meaning and specific meaning. when somone is using words to describe some knowledge they claim they have, then the words and the idea they convey HAVE to be scrutinized. to wave this off as being mere "semantics" is to rob us of our only method of communicating ideas that have value.
 
Originally posted by marketsurfer
thanks for the response--so they can think rationally in all other aspects of life but for some reason their intellect fails them in this regard. do i understand you correctly ??

best,

surf:cool:
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This is ridiculous. Not only can intelligent people think irrationally, but you have overlooked the fact that brilliant people throughout history have contradicted one another when it comes to religion (among other things). Weren't there brilliant ancient Greeks, Romans, buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Christians, etc etc. Therefore, intelligent people can clearly disagree, whether they are thinking rationally or not, about these matters!
 
Originally posted by daniel_m


i'm not talking about convoluted logic...just the basics. it simply MUST be accepted that the simple laws of logic are universal and they apply to all knowledge.
if someone makes a knowledge claim that contradicts the laws of logic, then that "knowledge" is bunk.

words have meaning and specific meaning. when somone is using words to describe some knowledge they claim they have, then the words and the idea they convey HAVE to be scrutinized. to wave this off as being mere "semantics" is to rob us of our only method of communicating ideas that have value.
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That depends how far you take it. When you get into the most abstract concepts, words are limited, and to use words to create some petty contradiction (where the contradiction is created primarily by using the definitions of a communications system of a species). The concept of all powerful, like the concept of infinity, is not something that can be contradicted with petty word games. In fact, our mathematical logic systems are limited, as I've said. Indeed, math has inherent contradictions (Russel's Paradox is but one example). Yet we should and must use math. But we don't have to apply linguistic games to serious, abstract concepts!
 
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