Regarding the Existence or Absence of God
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That is exactly why I asked for a VERY PRECISE
definition of god to start this debate with.
For some people, god is a synonym for the universe.
In this case, god does exist.
For others, its the christian god, and in that case,
I would say there is no rational reason to believe
in such a god.
peace
axeman
definition of god to start this debate with.
For some people, god is a synonym for the universe.
In this case, god does exist.
For others, its the christian god, and in that case,
I would say there is no rational reason to believe
in such a god.
peace
axeman
axeman i like your style. 
God is the universe? Isn't that a branch of metaphysics called ... ummm .... ummmmmmmmm ... Pantheism?
This solves a very easy problem that stems from the old argument, "If God created the Universe, then who or what created God?"
However, we know from our experiences that for every effect, there is a cause. There is no effect without a cause. This is the causality principle.
So, if the effect was the big-bang, what caused it, and so on and so forth ... leading us to what? God?
This is exactly the kind of logic puzzle that will drive people crazy. So in order to solve that problem, we resort to faith and say, "ok, I don't know all the particulars about this, but I see design in the universe so I think there is a creator."
There was the old classic "Watch" argument that stated, "If you saw a watch, would you not say that there was some intelligent designer to piece together all the gears?" Well, the same could apply to the universe.
There is also the Anthropic Principle that states that the design of this universe is such that it could not have happened by chance.
Then you can look at the encoding of DNA information and determine that, by mere chance, it would take a time-period vastly larger than the universe has been around to formulate and encode just the simple enzymes within the human body.
There is a ton of evidence that suggests design. Just look at your own hand and move your fingers around. A lot of people will take the evolution ideas but then you have to understand that evolution has to have some source or creator -- and then you run into all sorts of problems with the law of thermodynamics and how systems are getting more complex when they should be breaking down.
So you have all this contradictory and amazing things around us that suggests something is going on. Just the fact that we can have this conversation with computers and never see our faces -- that is amazing evolution itself -- but we made that possible with technology.
There are books on my bookshelf with symbols that I interpret with meaning -- there is just so much design all around us and its constantly evolving into deeper levels.
I have no idea where all this is headed but I do know that I can appreciate the end-results without necessarily understanding or knowing the origin.
Much greater minds than I have tackled these issues and they still didn't get us anywhere. I don't think anyone will ever be able to prove or disprove the existence of a God because that proof would exist in a logic-set outside our sub-set of logic (the set of logic we can comprehend). The super-set of logic would probably baffle us -- just as quantum effects baffle us. (Photon EPR paradox, quantum tunneling, many-worlds theory).
The REALLY cool thing about this universe is that there is no end to the depth of complexity. And the older I get and the more I learn, the more I recognize that "something" is going on -- something I can't explain but must accept by mere faith of observation and anecdotal evidence.
This solves a very easy problem that stems from the old argument, "If God created the Universe, then who or what created God?"
However, we know from our experiences that for every effect, there is a cause. There is no effect without a cause. This is the causality principle.
So, if the effect was the big-bang, what caused it, and so on and so forth ... leading us to what? God?
This is exactly the kind of logic puzzle that will drive people crazy. So in order to solve that problem, we resort to faith and say, "ok, I don't know all the particulars about this, but I see design in the universe so I think there is a creator."
There was the old classic "Watch" argument that stated, "If you saw a watch, would you not say that there was some intelligent designer to piece together all the gears?" Well, the same could apply to the universe.
There is also the Anthropic Principle that states that the design of this universe is such that it could not have happened by chance.
Then you can look at the encoding of DNA information and determine that, by mere chance, it would take a time-period vastly larger than the universe has been around to formulate and encode just the simple enzymes within the human body.
There is a ton of evidence that suggests design. Just look at your own hand and move your fingers around. A lot of people will take the evolution ideas but then you have to understand that evolution has to have some source or creator -- and then you run into all sorts of problems with the law of thermodynamics and how systems are getting more complex when they should be breaking down.
So you have all this contradictory and amazing things around us that suggests something is going on. Just the fact that we can have this conversation with computers and never see our faces -- that is amazing evolution itself -- but we made that possible with technology.
There are books on my bookshelf with symbols that I interpret with meaning -- there is just so much design all around us and its constantly evolving into deeper levels.
I have no idea where all this is headed but I do know that I can appreciate the end-results without necessarily understanding or knowing the origin.
Much greater minds than I have tackled these issues and they still didn't get us anywhere. I don't think anyone will ever be able to prove or disprove the existence of a God because that proof would exist in a logic-set outside our sub-set of logic (the set of logic we can comprehend). The super-set of logic would probably baffle us -- just as quantum effects baffle us. (Photon EPR paradox, quantum tunneling, many-worlds theory).
The REALLY cool thing about this universe is that there is no end to the depth of complexity. And the older I get and the more I learn, the more I recognize that "something" is going on -- something I can't explain but must accept by mere faith of observation and anecdotal evidence.
good post aphie. we can tell you're no dummy. when it comes to these big questions, i just think of creatures like ants. to them, what they know is all they know, they have no idea what else goes on besides what they can understand. however, we know there's so much more to the universe than what ants know. as you go higher up, the knowledge just expands, but there are still levels above. just because we, as humans, know what we think is a lot, doesn't mean there aren't levels above us -- just like we are to ants.
anyway, aphie, and others, you may want to check out these other 2 threads i started a while back...
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7995&perpage=6&pagenumber=1
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8102&perpage=6&pagenumber=1
anyway, aphie, and others, you may want to check out these other 2 threads i started a while back...
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7995&perpage=6&pagenumber=1
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8102&perpage=6&pagenumber=1
This is a cool way of putting it, although it assumes that our logic system works in all universes (if indeed there are other universes) and, of course, that our logic and senses accurately perceive and interpret (even if only to a limited degree) our own objective universe.
I don't mean to help Danny out, but I do have to ask one question. If God is benevolent, why would he create such an evil market???
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