Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

[Jeffo]

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko

this is going to open a can of worms. would you call me a murderer because there's no proof i'm not one? the onus is on you, my friend. i'm not the one claiming i know who created the universe. why should i have to debunk your claims?

I'm not asking you to debunk my claims. I'm asking you to prove YOUR asertions (I said ascertation earlier, not a real word), namely that there is no God. You seem to enjoy making fun of Christians for believing something there is no "proof" for and yet you seem to be doing the very same thing. You continue to give cop out responses. Either give me proof of your belief that Jesus was not God or admit you don't know for sure.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Originally posted by Jeffo
I'm not asking you to debunk my claims. I'm asking you to prove YOUR asertions (I said ascertation earlier, not a real word), namely that there is no God. You seem to enjoy making fun of Christians for believing something there is no "proof" for and yet you seem to be doing the very same thing. You continue to give cop out responses. Either give me proof of your belief that Jesus was not God or admit you don't know for sure.

first of all, claiming that there is no god and claiming that jesus christ isn't god are two different things.

personally, i don't even like to use the word god...but it can be an acceptable answer depending on what you mean. there could be some creator, i do not know. there is no evidence showing who or what he is, so why should i say there is one god. if i had to say i had a religion, i would say science is my religion.

anyway, back to the subject. you are asking me to prove there is no god. i'm not claiming there isn't one. go back and re-read my other post. i am not claiming jesus christ is god, YOU ARE. EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE. you show me the extraordinary evidence. you think it's true, you prove it. why is it my job?

if i discovered a new planet, i would have to prove it. i would not be able to say, "well since i can't really prove it, it doesn't mean it isn't there. GET REAL. this is why the onus is on you.

 

[Jeffo]

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko
you religous people have not passed the test, i'm sorry.

I'm not taking no test. I had enough of those in school. Nothing we can say will change your mind because your beliefs are set in stone and you feel that your own reasoning stands above all else. You have deemed yourself the "religious test judger". Some of us believe there is a creator whose mind is infinitely above ours and is the creator of not only the universe but the truth we believe. You can continue to take glee in trying to belittle us, I certainly am not trying to humiliate you and took no joy in the debate. BTW if you were wrong, would you want to know?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Originally posted by Jeffo
BTW if you were wrong, would you want to know?

that is an interesting question. i would like you to answer it as well. it certainly does make life interesting knowing that we have no idea why we're here and how it all happened. i know you will disagree because your bible explains it all, but as you know, that isn't how i feel.

to answer the question, i wouldn't mind at all knowing if the bible is correct or not (i'm already pretty sure it isn't). the real question is if i would want to know the answer to it all. i wonder if i could even comprehend it. i guess i would like to say yes, i would like to know...but it's also fun to be able to wonder...tough question.

 

[thunderbolt]

Faster,

You on the sauce?

 

[Jeffo]

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko

i want to be clear on something. there may have been a MAN named jesus christ. however, he was just a human being like we are. he is not some super being "god" type. so i'm not saying there isn't any evidence that a man name jesus christ once existed. what i'm saying is that is he not the creator of the universe.

That's what I was referring to as to what I thought you might want to prove since you seem so sure of it. It was your assertion.

But we're obviously going in circles so I will bow out. My debating skills are pretty bad but matters of faith are obviously very difficult to debate. However whenever I do, my faith is strengthened all the more. See you around ET. You can have the last word if you like.
Jeff

 

[I Missed Boat]

Originally posted by darkhorse
Wow, look at all the great stuff I missed.

And as to who is going to win: A recent WSJ editorial highlighted a study showing that America's universities are basically 95% left wing- i.e., atheistic, socialistic philosopher kings. The kind of monkeys you guys admire. But you know what? That's bad news for you, because it means your power has maxed out. The best you've got has failed miserably. You hijacked the halls of learning and yet you still couldn't snuff the foolish christians out. It's too late now, reality has caught up with your lies. The age of postmodernism is dead- 'no such thing as right or wrong' has been exposed to the world as the vile garbage it really is. Think back on your glory days, God hater- your time to shine is gone. This is the pinnacle of power for autonomous man. It's all downhill from here. Even science is turning against you now. Precious science, that haven of anti-God intellectual superiority for so long, has now led to what?

Axeman beat me to it while I was working out. But he missed (or didn't bother with) some of the worst ad homs. Darkhorse labels or associates everyone who questions (not necessarily even opposes) theism with "anti-God," "God hater," "lies" and "atheistic, socialistic philosopher kings." Actually, I hated the leftist professors that were out to do nothing other than push an agenda (ie indoctrinate) and I don't think hardly anyone here that questions theism is socialist. Accusing each of us ("you hijacked the halls of learning..."), who have different perspectives on this issue even from one another, is almost paranoid.

As far as noting that it is unfair and ignorant for atheists or agnostics to label anyone religious as stupid, I already pointed that out several pages back. But your hypocrisy with ad homs is funny! You seem to change quite a bit as well in how reasonable and secure you are from one day to the next. Are you bipolar? No, seriously??

 

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by darkhorse


And Christ did not drive the moneychangers out of the temple "just because they were charging interest." He did it because they were making a place of worship into a place of business. Christianity is not anticapitalist- in fact the protestant reformation is what really kickstarted the engine. But there is a time and place for all things, and some things should obviously be separated. Trying to make a buck in the temple or in church is like trying to sell life insurance at a funeral- grossly inappropriate. It was the money changer's inner attitude of callous opportunism, their lack of respect for God's holy place, that made Jesus angry- Not "infraction b72 of the interest rate code."

By the way again: I didn't mean to imply that the money changers were honest blue collar joes. They were pretty clearly ripping off their customers. It's easy to move from indifference to dishonesty when it comes to ethics or lack thereof (the slippery slope of sin). I just wanted to highlight that the problem was first and foremost with their attitudes and motivations and their abuse of a holy place, not with the generic fact that any interest rate charges took place.

You could still argue that the interpretation goes either way, but then I ask what you would do with the parable of the ten minas in Luke 19:23 when the master (God) says: "Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?"

 

[I Missed Boat]

Originally posted by Jeffo


OK, there is plenty of historical documentation (outside of the Bible) as to the miracles Jesus performed, his grave stone being rolled away etc etc. I realize you will find "contradictions" (axeman's term) and not accept it as "proof" but hey, at least I tried. So in this debate only us believers have to come up with "proof" and you need no proof for your ascertations?

We know human who lived is a man. What he is claiming we know. What we don't know is that Jesus was more than a man, and if one must offer proof that a man was not more than a man, then you should prove that I am not God Almighty playing Devil's advocate as a I pretend to be agnostic about my own divine existence here on Elite Trader

 

[I Missed Boat]

Originally posted by Jeffo


I'm not taking no test. I had enough of those in school. Nothing we can say will change your mind because your beliefs are set in stone and you feel that your own reasoning stands above all else. You have deemed yourself the "religious test judger". Some of us believe there is a creator whose mind is infinitely above ours and is the creator of not only the universe but the truth we believe. You can continue to take glee in trying to belittle us, I certainly am not trying to humiliate you and took no joy in the debate. BTW if you were wrong, would you want to know?

I don't think he was claiming that a creator does not exist, just as I don't. Some have made this claim, but others of us simply question why this MUST BE so. And the same goes (even more so) for Jesus.