Regarding the Existence or Absence of God

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tripack, again, the IMPLICATION of god NEVER BEING WRONG, of KNOWING INFALLIBLY what you will do, can only lead us to the conclusion that we NEVER HAD A CHOICE.

because if God right now, at this very second, KNOWS that i will do X at some time in my life, and GOD IS NEVER WRONG, then i never had a choice in doing ANYTHING BUT X.

i, personally, don't have a problem with god being able to be wrong (i perfectly justifiably do not believe in him) but the christian, i guess, does.

to put it a different way, just to help you understand, if god "KNOWS" i will do something, but i don't end up doing it, god didn't know EVERYTHING, which is the definition of an ALL-knowing being.

 
You are saying that god's knowledge of future events eliminates the actor's free will. I say that foreknowledge without interference doesn't eliminate free will. The actor can at all times make any choice he chooses. The actor can change his mind at any time. The actor is self-determinant. To the actor his outcome is uncertain. He doesn't know the end from the beginning. Each moment in time is unique and new.

An omniscient god can see the whole path of the actor's life. If the omniscient god doesn't intervene then the actor can in fact determine his own outcome. Or in other words, the actor will end up where the actor has chosen to go. Where he ends up is completely the result of the choices he made along the way. Nobody forced him to make any decision or choice along the way. This is by definition free will. The omniscient god happens to know the path in advance so to god the path is already determined, but to the actor every choice is an exercise in free will.

So you could say that in the final analysis we aren't going to prove anything to an omniscient god, but we will prove something to ourselves about how we have chosen to live.
 
I know daniel will reply to this and once again attempt to claim that there is no free will, therefore he has lost his free will.

:eek: :p :D
 
Originally posted by TriPack
The omniscient god happens to know the path so to god the path is already determined, but to the actor every choice is an exercise in free will.
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i guess you fail to see the self-refutation of that statement.

when Neil Armstrong was born, god KNEW that he would land on the moon. his entire life, Armstrong was prevented from taking such actions that would disqualify him from the opportunity to land on the moon. Armstrong never had the choice to become an alchoholic, a murderer, a terrorist, never had the possibility of being incapacitated in any way (eg blinded, murdered). free will, equality for all? i think not.

face it tripack, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. you want a god who is infallible and knows everything, and you want man to have free will too. this is logically impossible, as you yourself illustrate with my above quote.

 
Originally posted by daniel_m


i guess you fail to see the self-refutation of that statement.

when Neil Armstrong was born, god KNEW that he would land on the moon. his entire life, Armstrong was prevented from taking such actions that would disqualify him from the opportunity to land on the moon. Armstrong never had the choice to become an alchoholic, a murderer, a terrorist, never had the possibility of being incapacitated in any way (eg blinded, murdered). free will, equality for all? i think not.
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No you are mistaken. Armstrong could have chosen any path. He did choose the path that led to the moon by exercise of his free will. Nobody forced him into those decisions. Knowledge of future actions by a third party doesn't preclude free will to the actor.
 
Another way too look at it is this.

If any entity exists with perfect knowledge of the future,
this implies that the future is predetermined.

If it was NOT predetermined, it would be impossible to
perfectly see it.

A predetermined futures allows no room for free will.

The actors THINK they have free will. They THINK they are
making all their decisions freely, but it is really just an
illusion.

You two may simply be arguing semantics.

My definition of free will would include the ability to
make a choice which is not forseable by anyone.

Tripack may be defining the illusion of making a predetermined
choice as free will.


I will reply to other stuff later.
peace

axeman

Originally posted by daniel_m


i guess you fail to see the self-refutation of that statement.

when Neil Armstrong was born, god KNEW that he would land on the moon. his entire life, Armstrong was prevented from taking such actions that would disqualify him from the opportunity to land on the moon. Armstrong never had the choice to become an alchoholic, a murderer, a terrorist, never had the possibility of being incapacitated in any way (eg blinded, murdered). free will, equality for all? i think not.
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hehe.

at armstrong's birth, did god know what would become of armstrongs life or not?

no evading this now,

if god DID know, and god is never wrong, armstrong COULD NOT have chosen a course of action that would preclude him from being an astronaut. if he did, then GOD WAS WRONG.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
hehe.

at armstrong's birth, did god know what would become of armstrongs life or not?

no evading this now,

if god DID know, and god is never wrong, armstrong COULD NOT have chosen a course of action that would preclude him from being an astronaut. if he did, then GOD WAS WRONG.
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I don't claim to know what god knows. I'm not evading :). God knew and armstrong still had free choice to make any contrary decisions. It just happened that god know Armstrong so well that he knew he would choose to make a great astronaut. Armstrong got to the moon by free choices, and wasn't forced to make any one decision along the way.

At the end of the day I don't subscribe to the notion that free will and foreknowledge by a 3rd party are contradictary (in spite of what the classical philosophers might say). I think their definition of free will is too restrictive. I don't believe that knowledge alone is enough to preclude free will. In the end the actor made all the decisions and they arrived where their choices led them without any intervention.

I could be wrong but that is how I reconcile free will and omniscience. If I see any visions tonight that clarify I'll be sure to fill you guys in.
 
These past few pages have shown us why God (by definition) is all-knowing, all-powerful and beyond the ken of mortals. Axe and daniel are trying to pigeon-hole his powers in a manner that is easy to comprehend. Tri-pack makes perfect sense yet they fail to grasp what omniscience means. Omniscience means ALL-KNOWING. God KNOWS which of the millions of possible choices we will choose each day of our lives because He is ALL-KNOWING. This does not mean we do not have free will. Rather, it means that God knows EVERYTHING. Freewill and an omniscient God are mutually exclusive concepts and NOT dependent on one another.
 
hahaha! :)

tripack is most certainly not making "sense", not to anybody that actually understands simple logic, but, under the circumstances, he's hasn't put it in a bad attempt..

goldenarm, truly i do not know why you continue to post on this thread. you have been shown to have a near-zero understanding of the perfectly sensible arguments axe, stu, i et al have put up. you are content to live in blissful ignorance, which is fine, but to claim that you have some "truth", when your claims in no way conform to what is known as "knowledge", i have to call you on your bs.

like i said, i hope that new job of yours doesn't require you to think too much, otherwise you're gonna be serving me fries some time soon..
 
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