Another question: what are the assets of the Refco Group companies (Refcofx included, I believe) that are in the bankruptcy? Just before the bankruptcy, didn't the Refco Group obtain 380 million or so from Jim Rogers, then another lump of cash of about that same size from the Austrian bank? Did those sums disappear down a black hole?
Refco FX account withdrawl frozen!!!
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Another question: what are the assets of the Refco Group companies (Refcofx included, I believe) that are in the bankruptcy? Just before the bankruptcy, didn't the Refco Group obtain 380 million or so from Jim Rogers, then another lump of cash of about that same size from the Austrian bank? Did those sums disappear down a black hole?
True.
But the fact is, the only ones who are making out in this whole mess are the attoneys.
It would be nice if someone could point us to some case law....
For the people on here that are account holders it seems that a key decision is that of the judge with respect to the treatment of account holders money. One of the questions is "will the judge allow account holder deposits to be treated as property of Refco, or will it be refunded to account holders?"
There are several related cases right now with Refco Capital Markets. The outcome of them will presumably shape the outcome of the same issues at RefcoFX. This is why I believe it's very important to make as much noise as possible right now about how wrong this is with lawmakers, the media, etc.
Remember, it can be legal, but not logical.
You can write to your congressman and senators easily at:
http://www.letterstocongress.org When you use this, you will be able to choose if it's free (email) or the delivery service if you want to use them for mailing an actual letter.
Here - fish around in this.
Call up. Be nice. Say you have an account and can anyone help or point you in the right direction about what will happen to your type of account holder.
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/r02/manhattan/org_meetings.htm
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/r02/manhattan.htm
Maybe they'll be able to tell you something or maybe steer you to the law firm handling your type of claim.
Call up. Be nice. Say you have an account and can anyone help or point you in the right direction about what will happen to your type of account holder.
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/r02/manhattan/org_meetings.htm
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/r02/manhattan.htm
Maybe they'll be able to tell you something or maybe steer you to the law firm handling your type of claim.
absolutely right! think yr letter http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=882762#post882762 is good! all the best,
Than You for the information. I was told that Andy, the guy his is handling hte refco problem is not around. I left voice mail. Hopefully he will call back.
I'll write back on my results.
Quote from ZoneTrooper:
Are you sure it's because of the CIPF or it's it something more devious such as the tricky worded paragraph 4 in the standard RefcoFX Client agreement that isn't in the RefcoFX CA agreement.
4. COLLATERAL. All funds, securities, currencies, and other property of
Trader which RFXA or its affiliates may at any time be carrying for Trader
(either individually, jointly with another, or as a guarantor of the account of
any other person) or which may at any time be in its possession or control
or carried on its books for any purpose, including safekeeping, are to be
held by RFXA as security and subject to a general lien and right of set-off
for liabilities of Trader to RFXA whether or not RFXA has made advances
in connection with such securities, commodities, currencies or other
property, and irrespective of the number of accounts Trader may have
with RFXA. RFXA may in its discretion, at any time and from time to time,
without notice to Trader, apply and/or transfer any or all funds or other
property of Trader between any of Traderâs accounts. Trader hereby also
grants to RFXA the right to pledge, re-pledge, hypothecate, invest or
loan, either separately or with the property of other Traders, to itself as
broker or to others, any securities or other property of Trader held by
RFXA as margin or security. RFXA shall at no time be required to deliver
to Trader the identical property delivered to or purchased by RFXA for
any account of Trader.
Later on in the Client Agreement it says:
LENDING AGREEMENT
By signing this Agreement, Trader authorizes RFXA and its affiliates to
use all funds, securities, currencies and other property of Trader as
specified in Paragraph 4 of the Trader Agreement.
Hmm, I think this is what Refco is using to steel customer funds. The question is, is this legal. After all, I hide in a contract that if company X does something illegal, then individual A will bail them out. The courts in general will say that statement makes the whole contract NULL and void, unless the contract says something in like that if by law something is illegal, that dosn't parts of the contract stand.
The short answer is I'm not sure. However I believe the Refco CA entity is regulated and it is listed as a member of the IDA (Indpendent Dealers Association) and the CIPF so it seems that a combination of things make the Canadian outcome favorable; better regulation and insurance for account holders.
Here is how I see it :
1) either 100% of funds at REFCOFX are still in customer accounts (were they belong)
2) customer accounts are not 100% funded by REFCOFX ... money is missing
3) funds are no longer there ... REFCOFX Associates LLC might have loaned all money to other entities of REFCO (eg. REFCO Inc.) in order to pay creditors, etc.
If we're in for #3 ... I might be trading currencies with no money backing my account. Pffff. And I fear my funds are actually used to cover day to day operation of diffirent REFCO entities.
HOWEVER, if 100% of funds are still at REFCOFX ASSOCIATES LLC. ... we should get our money back - I can't see how the COURT will authorize transfer from REFCOFX to other entities by now. But on the other hand, if fund tranfers occured prioir to the FREEZE account "thing" on oct. 18th by the COURT, forget it ... we won't be able to recoup 100% of our funds, if any.
Any thinking ?
1) either 100% of funds at REFCOFX are still in customer accounts (were they belong)
2) customer accounts are not 100% funded by REFCOFX ... money is missing
3) funds are no longer there ... REFCOFX Associates LLC might have loaned all money to other entities of REFCO (eg. REFCO Inc.) in order to pay creditors, etc.
If we're in for #3 ... I might be trading currencies with no money backing my account. Pffff. And I fear my funds are actually used to cover day to day operation of diffirent REFCO entities.
HOWEVER, if 100% of funds are still at REFCOFX ASSOCIATES LLC. ... we should get our money back - I can't see how the COURT will authorize transfer from REFCOFX to other entities by now. But on the other hand, if fund tranfers occured prioir to the FREEZE account "thing" on oct. 18th by the COURT, forget it ... we won't be able to recoup 100% of our funds, if any.
Any thinking ?
Quote from refco_for_sale:
Here is how I see it :
1) either 100% of funds at REFCOFX are still in customer accounts (were they belong)
2) customer accounts are not 100% funded by REFCOFX ... money is missing
3) funds are no longer there ... REFCOFX Associates LLC might have loaned all money to other entities of REFCO (eg. REFCO Inc.) in order to pay creditors, etc.
If we're in for #3 ... I might be trading currencies with no money backing my account. Pffff. And I fear my funds are actually used to cover day to day operation of diffirent REFCO entities.
HOWEVER, if 100% of funds are still at REFCOFX ASSOCIATES LLC. ... we should get our money back - I can't see how the COURT will authorize transfer from REFCOFX to other entities by now. But on the other hand, if fund tranfers occured prioir to the FREEZE account "thing" on oct. 18th by the COURT, forget it ... we won't be able to recoup 100% of our funds, if any.
Any thinking ?
This all leads to the new phrase in spot trading : "I've been Refco'd"
I'm from Vancouver, Canada and I set up a RefcoFX account with my Canadian passport, proof of Canadian address, and funded with a Canadian Credit Card.
But my account was set up as an American account, and I have no access to my funds.
But my account was set up as an American account, and I have no access to my funds.